Warfare is tedious with 1UPT and it's making the entire game less fun

[Taefin]

Stacks of doom were incredibly strategic - much more so than the checkers of 1UPT. Here's a 21 page guide to building efficient stacks for different situations from Civ IV. In my opinion, the main reason why people hated stacks was because the AI was actually decent at building and using them. Getting crushed by the AI can bruise the ego - ergo, stacks = bad.

Limited stacks could easily help solve the woeful unit AI in Civ VII. Just allow for limited stacks of 2/4/6/etc - with varied compositions of units. Don't introduce larger limited stacks until later in the game - start the game with 1UPT, then a Civic or Commander upgrade that allows 2, then 3, and so on and so forth - cap the stack at a reasonable number. Make the composition of the stack matter.

Very interesting finally learning how more about how stacks worked. I wonder if Millenia short stacks were redeemable. The AI played even worse than VII and it was so easy for them to use a few bad units into a stack than undid and reversed their CS advantage. Admittedly it’s hard to tell when the game also gave 100% accurate predictions of all the random events in a battle.

But my main takeaway from Millenia for this conversation is that it found a way to make its armies/stacks very heavy on micro, cycling damaged units out and between multiple armies. Would a future Civ that implemented stacks be able to avoid the temptation to give the same level of micro?

 

[CoconutTank]

Sorry to hear that some of you are having a bad time with Civ 7's combat system I don't mind microing units that much, but admittedly I played RTSes and Advance Wars a bunch before I played Civ 5.

 

[Thormodr]

1UPT certainly has had its problems since it was introduced such as the AI being completely befuddled by it but I will say that the Commanders in 7 are a step in the right direction. Provided the AI can use them effectively. I have my doubts, however.

While not perfect, I like Ara's way of doing things. You can create armies and formations. So limited stacks. I think that is the best compromise.

 

[protocol7]

The AI definitely cannot use them correctly. I don’t know why, I play militarily a lot so maybe it comes up more, but I feel like I’m constantly taking out packed or unpacked (but with no units nearby) commanders wandering aimlessly around the frontlines.

 

[Lebo44]

Sorry to hear that some of you are having a bad time with Civ 7's combat system I don't mind microing units that much, but admittedly I played RTSes and Advance Wars a bunch before I played Civ 5.

No worries, good that you find it interesting But your comment actually aligns with some earlier observations—the nature of the game seems to have shifted closer to RTS titles like Age of Empires, both in scale and gameplay style.

That said, I don't see why Civ couldn't incorporate both systems—unpacked armies and stacks. In fact, many grand strategy games, even some low-budget ones, managed to offer both these features. F.e. Field Of Glory games - you can actually resolve battles in 3 ways: fully tactical, partially tactical and auto-resolve.

 

[Lebo44]

While not perfect, I like Ara's way of doing things. You can create armies and formations. So limited stacks. I think that is the best compromise.

I haven't played ARA yet but I read about that system and it sound like perfect approach. Military techs have taken a new purpose: you can research new formations, not only better units. It seems you can design you armies (stacks) according to your needs and resources. It still pretty simplistic but there is definitely lots of potential in it.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Stacks of doom were incredibly strategic - much more so than the checkers of 1UPT. Here's a 21 page guide to building efficient stacks for different situations from Civ IV.

The original thread is here:-

Thread 'The Stack o' Doom: Effective Composition and Use of Offensive Military Stacks'

Sep 12, 2006

The Stack o’ Doom:
Effective Composition And Use Of The Offensive Military Stack In Civilization IV

A Civilization IV strategy article by Sisiutil

Version 2.0 - January 2nd, 2009

Attached, in PDF format.

Comments and constructive criticism are encouraged and welcome!

• Sisiutil

 

[aelf]

Wow, I had no idea people had gone into this kind of depth on stacks in Civ 4. If I had known I might have been able to actually level up from Emperor/Immortal and win sometimes on Deity.

Yeah, it's tiresome to hear the oft repeated myth that stacks involved no tactics. People saying that probably smashed one stack against another willy-nilly. Some don't even appear to know that you could select individual units in the stack to attack.

 

[uppi]

Yeah, it's tiresome to hear the oft repeated myth that stacks involved no tactics. People saying that probably smashed one stack against another willy-nilly. Some don't even appear to know that you could select individual units in the stack to attack.

Don't remind me of that tedious process of finding the one unit with the best promotions for the next attack in the huge doomstack. Does anyone actually want that?

 

[stealth_nsk]

In my opinion, the main reason why people hated stacks was because the AI was actually decent at building and using them.

And "decent" means players don't see how AI pops units out of thin air, unlike 1UpT, where AI bonuses to strength are visible.

 

[aelf]

Don't remind me of that tedious process of finding the one unit with the best promotions for the next attack in the huge doomstack. Does anyone actually want that?

Not much more tedious than finding the individual unit to unpack from the commander or clicking multiple times to make sure you're selecting the commander/unit on the tile.

 

[uppi]

Not much more tedious than finding the individual unit to unpack from the commander or clicking multiple times to make sure you're selecting the commander/unit on the tile.

Yeah, well, I don't want that either. But with 4-6 units in a stack that is something that could be solved by UI. With 50 units in a stack, it is tedious, no matter the UI.

But the point is: Any type of stack combat that is not just smashing them into another will also be tedious.

 

[Krikkit1]

Yeah, well, I don't want that either. But with 4-6 units in a stack that is something that could be solved by UI. With 50 units in a stack, it is tedious, no matter the UI.

But the point is: Any type of stack combat that is not just smashing them into another will also be tedious.

I think the broader point is: any combat that involves multiple separate groups (units or stacks) will be tedious. 1upt is fine when you have 8 units or less in your army. more and it starts to get frustrating/ tedious.

 

[aelf]

Yeah, well, I don't want that either. But with 4-6 units in a stack that is something that could be solved by UI. With 50 units in a stack, it is tedious, no matter the UI.

But the point is: Any type of stack combat that is not just smashing them into another will also be tedious.

50 units in a stack is nuts. If you look at the old thread about stack composition, we were talking about 15+ units being on the high side.

 

[ariosto]

50 units in a stack is nuts. If you look at the old thread about stack composition, we were talking about 15+ units being on the high side.

In Deity Civ 4 50 units in stack is reasonable number from renaissance era onwards. You don't usually need that much on lower difficulties, though

And "decent" means players don't see how AI pops units out of thin air, unlike 1UpT, where AI bonuses to strength are visible.

I don't see any difference between Civ 4 and Civ 5 on that regard.

 

[fantsu]

In IV AI knew how to whip units out with slavery and it was easy to predict when facing city with high pop. Same happened with drafting later on.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I don't see any difference between Civ 4 and Civ 5 on that regard.

Yep. It's Civ7 which moved AI bonuses to direct combat strength (and I like how it fits the rest of the combat system). Civ5 tried to make AI have the same benefits as in Civ4, resulting with carpet of doom.

 

[aelf]

In Deity Civ 4 50 units in stack is reasonable number from renaissance era onwards. You don't usually need that much on lower difficulties, though

We weren't talking about lower difficulties.

Maybe gameplay has evolved since then, though.

 

[uppi]

50 units in a stack is nuts. If you look at the old thread about stack composition, we were talking about 15+ units being on the high side.

I have not played Civ 4 in ages, but from what I remember: The doomstack were really doomstacks. That strategy pdf linked above suggests up to 29 for Medieval. And there is no limit to stack size. When the opponent brings a bigger stack, you need to bring a bigger stack as well.

 

[aelf]

I played on Immortal and never saw AI stacks that big (29+) until maybe very late in the game.