Warhammer World Map Thread

[Masada]

New

(Will be busy with work related stuff till Tuesday when Cabinet has its last meeting.. and probably for another week at least till the Ministers decide they want to stop sending stuff through us...)

Will be putting down some stuff sometime soon on my thoughts on the Old World and Lustria...

Possible things that need to be done for Solowen's Warhammer World Map

Prelimaries for conversation to a Rhye style map

Naggaroth:

Prelimary Report: The continent conforms very closely to Naaggaroth depicted in the Warhammer World Map i have (from GW) the starting areas for Dark Elves appear to be fairly well not to rich and not to poor.

City Placement for Dark Elves:

Spoiler :

Naggorond: Fairly well balanced city placement... i do however think that moving the Copper in the hills around into the cities fat cross might be a desirable thing to do otherwise it wont be picked up by any concievable city placement.

The country around Ghrond is mediocre and an AI would not plant a city there which is unfortunate, it might therefore be advantageous to make it more desirable (its the area immediately around the warpstone to the north) i would suggest making the snowy areas closer to Naggarond plains or normal forests and changing the hills from snowy hills to normal hill and adding in some iron (or other production resource) and maybe some accessible food items (ie shuffling a cow or the wheat from Naggarond a little north outside of the intial fat cross of Naggarond)

Har Ganeth (to the direct east of Naggarond just before the mountains and on the coast) we want a city placement on the hills near the crab and the gems and the mountains... maybe if we move the fish east a tile... change the snowy forests to plains and add a food resource... sheep on a hill that should make the computer choose that spot...

Har Gareth (just south of Naggarond on the second river) would benifit from some production so maybe a hill with something to mine... and another normal hill around inside its fat cross

In the unsued space between Naggaroth and Har Gareth delete the iron, the wine and make change the forests to tunda forests and maybe getting rid of the jems would be advisable near the barbs

Har Karond is fine... but despite what the map shows maybe it needs to be made on the coast (Dark Elves are going to need to be able to make ships) but at a second look it should be fine but maybe we should sneak some production in... a hill or two coming out of that outcropping of Mountains to the east might be advisable

Karond Kar will be a difficult one for the computer to inhabbit... but we can perhaps solve this problem by making the island or coast around it richer... and having a settler with a galley spawning near or next to it?

Some notes on Naggaroth in general:

Spoiler :

Dark Elves are going to if we dont limit the areas where they can settle control the whole of Naggaroth and spam a cottage economy and irrigation (after farms can spread farms) and occupy the entire continent. This needs to be combated:

Solutions:

Spoiler :

We create a new "Primeval forest" or somesuch which cannot be settled on and not cut down... and may only have roads built on it and lumber mills put on it. We can couple this with a "*insert evil sounding word* forest which is impassable to all but scout units cannot have roads built on it and has a few barb spawning huts in them...i can see these situated around the rigde of scorched earth hills (which could be shuffled inland abit) so that Dark Elves can only build roads around the coast and a little way into the forests... note some of the forests will actually be kept as normal forests so they can still chop... these will be the ones close to cities and the coast

We can basically slice of most of the broken lands (which are those mountain islands) they serve no purpose whatsoever and clog up valuable room) and the blackspire mountains can be cut down significantly to a much thinner level... i suggest between 1-3 to save more room and most of that land in the west (that in Warhammer has never been settled and never will be... because if the Dark Elves find it scary it is scary) can be cut down to a token amount ie the area that takes up 11 plains, has fur and deer can be cut down to 1 or 2 squares with no bonuses. This can be extended to all things east of the blackspire mountains.

I would also suggest that we shrink the Eastern arm that makes up the bay of malice by a width of around 3 squares (keeping the basic shape but making The Great Ocean side a tad wider) where Vorshgar is atm shove the mountains of the blackspire mountains a few squares over taking out that spare land (and deleting those islands as needed) then shuffle the land there 2 squares over to free up room between Nagaroth and Ulthanuan.

Summary:

Spoiler :

Basically i propose we shuffle the Blackspire Mountains West to get rid of that land to the west of them thin the mountain range out limiting it at its most to 2 or 3. Deleting most of the Islands to the East of the Blackspire Mountains (and making the more compact and closer to shore). Deleting some of the Eastern Arm of the Sea of Malice (the bit between Clar Karond, Arnheim and Karond Kar which as the Sea of Malice on its Western Side). Then deleting and placing the barbs closer to Dark Elven cities (and if we have indestructable spawns make them that) and just gennerally making Naggaroth more compact.

Why:

Spoiler :

Because most of Naggaroth apart from the coast is uninhabbited (and in cannon unihabbitable and because we dont want a fairly rich naggaroth for the comp to abuse the living hell out of) this shifting West will also allow us to expand the Old World further west as well as Ulthuan (which i have a sneaking suspiscioin is a tad small)

Major Tasks:

Spoiler :

Making the Old World bigger to accomidate the large number of civs on it (with a goal of having at least on average 4 cities per civ) and if we make the Old World bigger... i think we may just be able to fit Skaven in... although i think that is going to be a tall order... as for beastmen... im thinking of that

Final words:
Solowen you are an abosolute Champion without par you have done the unthinkable and created a truely beautful map... (its unfortunately my job now to twist it to suit the balance and useage we are after for the scenario we are planning)


the country around Har Ganeth is not to bad but not to good either,

 

[Masada]

Staggered Starts


basically i suggest we start at -4920

Which is the date at which the Oldest of the Slann perish, the lizardmen win the war against chaos (or at least stall them) and the Old Ones have allready left the world (start of Lizardmen)

-4909 (so the same turn) Aenarion passes through the shrine of Asuryan and becomes the first Pheniox King (Start of High Elven State proper)

-4713 (a few turns away Chaos is stopped by the High Elves)

-4500 to 5000 (Dwarves begin to colonize the worlds edge mountains and meet the High Elves)

-4419 High Elves reach Lustria

-4164 (begginings of Chaos Dwarves (not yet corrupted fully but we can ignore that)

-4419 (High Elves allready have colonies on the Old World... Malekaith saves Athel Toralien (in the Old World), Sith Rionnasc'namishathir (Star Gem of the Sea is founded on the mouth of the Riek which is now Marienburg), Tor Alessi now the Brettionian port of L'Anguille, Athel Maraya (no idea where that is)

Same year Dwarves and High Elves destroy the last precense of Chaos in the Old World... mass Dwarven expansion

Amazon Sisterhood is founded

-4200 Romany people (first humans begin to invade the Old World from the Empire direction (forces High Elves out in some places)

-3418 Chaos Dwarves proper are created (another possible Chaos Dwarve starting position)

-2749 Civil begins in Ulthanuan when Malekaith assinates Bel Shannar

-2724 Malekaith becomes the Witch King ("real" foundation of Dark Elf state) Naggaroth founded

-2700 (basically the same turn as above) the Sundering

Same turn Nehekhara is founded and the same turn as that the Midean civilization begins (represented by barbs in bad lands and border princes area

-2000 Massive human invasion from Eastern Steppes (through Kislev into the Empire and beyond) [in game terms represented by a large barbarian invasion and new barb cities sprining up in the current state of the Empire and Southern Kiselv]

-2000 Nagash is born (Khermi intially represented by barbarian cities (will become Khermi (playable) when they all die )

-1780 At some stage a city called Tylos is founded in the Blighted Masrhes... destoryed

-1666 Massive Chaos invasion into Dark Elven lands begins [represeented by a sudden spike in Chaos attacks in Naggaroth coming at Clar Ghrond, Har Gareth and probably ships heading towards Karond Kar]



-1589 High Elves begin to abandon colonies on the Old World (Elves left behind see this as a betrayal) to battle Dark Elves

-1502 Sith Rionnasc falls to Dwarves same turn Athel Lorien is founded [start of wood elven civilization]

Badlands same turn Goblins invade bad lands and found cities there (Hittite civilization destroyed)[/B]

-1500 massive Volcanic explosions and Earthquakes ruin much of the Dwarven old Empire [represented how in the game? volcanoes appear and destroy cities?] Karak Ungor: falls to Goblins, Karak Varn floods and falls to Goblins and Skaven, Dwarf mines in Dragonback Mountains fall, Mad Dog Pass and Gunbad fall. Dwarven trading settlements along Urskoy and Upper Talabec abandoned.

Almeca civilization begins in old world in the south [represented by massive barbarian invasion and foundation of cities in the South of Lustria]

-1399 Skaven Clan Pestilens occupy ruined city of Quetza, spread plagues throughout Lustria. [represented ingame by a massive plague that hits the Lizardmen, Amazons, and whatever barb cities there are (helps clear away lots of spare old units (a Rhye innovation))

-1300(odd) Mount Silverspear falls, Dwarves abandon Eastern World Edge Mountains (Massive barbarian invasion of goblins (will occupy cities and have new ones spring up on plains of Empire)

-1163 Nagash launches war on Priest Kings, Nagash's first assault defeated. Nagash unleashes plague on land. New undead army invades land of Priest Kings and sweeps all before them. Alcadizaar brought in chains to be tormented by Nagash. (another alternate begginging for khermi)


-1000 Lands surrounding Athel Loren settled by Bretonni tribe who trade with Wood Elves. (early beggining of Brettionia... although i think this would be reprsented by the founding of new barb cities or an indipendant city ala Rhyes)

This was from http://www.msu.edu/user/cooking3/timeline.html which uses the newer books

Additions in bold are from http://www.siegetower.com/warhammer/timeline.htm which uses older sources

Anything in italics is from http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/component/option,com_wrapper/Itemid,56/

Work in progress atm

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

good start there. when do the empire, tilea and Estalia and Kislev get founded?

 

[Masada]

Tilea im sure was the oldest reconizable human state in the old world (and the oldest continous one) im quite sure that in some older time lines Tilea was comparible to Rome since it ruled alot of land (so its probably going to start abit earlier than hte other powers... im also going to start it earlier because it has a fairly marginal start and homeland (so it will need help and time to become cohesive and hold together as other states begin to form)

It must also be noted that in Rhyes if we compare it to Rome then it would be the nation that would start first in the Human Old World

In a list of human starts im going so far with:

-Ind and Cathay are founded around the time of Khermi... im not a 100% sure when but we can improvise (they will be kept in check by barbarian invasions etc... and will function almost exactly like Rhyes India and China (with maybe a little more militarism )
-Khermi (some event can change them to the dead or the tech tree) will be founded -2700 (it doesnt fall to Nagash till 1163 we will need to help this along somehow)
-Bretons first come to the Old World (mind you this is pre Guilles Le Breton) Brettonia can be founded at around -1000 although i think we need to base it on the date of Guilles Le Breton taking over Brettonia (which is a few years after Sigmar.. lets call it 10 turns) but this date could instead take the form of a few barb cities springing up which would allow Brettonia to culture shock them ala Rhyes.
-Estalia would found just before the Empire around 20 turns before (to allow it to have a solid culture to resist Brettonias spawning)
-The Empire will then spawn and be given a few turns to shore up culture and expand a little before Brettionia spawns (this is the second spawn oppurunity and the one i reccomend)
-Kislev will be founded after the Empire and Brettonia... not sure exactly when but lets call it 20-30 turns after to allow the Empire to shore up culture a little...

Basically to save lots of expanding and building settlers etc (ie 50-100 wasted turns of inhabbitation) we are going to use Rhyes mechanic of having pre-placed Barbarian cities and Indipendant cities founding in the regions around where we are going to place our civs...

an example of this would be that the Empire was before it was the Empire just a single tribe of many... to help fill and make the Empire the Empire quicker we are going to place a few cities in the Empire (ie Marienburg which was originally a High Elven city... Middenheim which was the second oldest city after Altdorf (and had been inhabbitated longer), Mordhiem (will also probably be taken by Slyvania when it spawns (about 1500 years after the Empire foundation?) and Talabeim all of which except Altdorf will be barbarian cities which are culture flipped into the Empire (pretty soon after its foundation)

now as an example of this... where Kislev is will have Praag, Erengrad, and maybe Bolgasgrad (Kiselv will have to be made wider than it is to accomidate this and richer) so that when the Kislevites spawn they will be able to take culture shock those cities to join them... or failing that we give them a fairly strong military and have them declare war ASAP...

Now as an example in point of the complexity of this... What would be to stop the Empire from taking these future Kislevite cities when it spawns? basically we give the Kislivite future cities the ability to spawn units.. (or something) so they can stop the Empire from reaching them (now assuming they are Cavalry we figure out a way to stop the Empire from killing them easily.. ie by making copper a little outside the fat cross of a starting city stoping them building spearman and going on the offensive (given that there is a 10-20 turn gap this will make it impossible to take them to quickly)

So then Kislev spawns... builds a city and wham they culture shock the cities into joining them (we need to ask Rhye for this code when we are ready... and the dynamic name changes... and how he manages to give preferences for the comps to settle at)

Terrian will also play a part in this... basically for instance lets take Tilea (on one side it is blocked by marshes... which will block them settling to far and on the other is the border princes... which will have a few barb cities in them built on hills (and starting with walls) to make it difficult for them to be taken to early... combine that with an inability to go to far north... and you can limit early expansion... now if we get even more cunning we find out the range of cultural flips... and keep Sartosa out of range... and give it a reasonable garrison and some ships... to stop Tilea for a little longer during which if we have programmed it correctly Tilea will be trying to fufill its intial victory conditions

I have plenty of lingering problems with beastman (how can we fit them into the old world... im thiniing of making room for them in the Northern wastes... and the far north of the dark lands... and maybe spreading out towards the Kurgan bit of the map... and shifting hte Kurgan abit back... and giving them an alternate passage through Mountains of Mourn and another route through the Worlds egde mountains.. maybe Peak pass...?

Skaven... hmmm we are going to need to get extremely good mechanics for this to work... but -100 city maintaince would be the easiest way to allow them to have lots of mediocre cites and making a new impassiable marsh around Skavenblight (and in a few other marshy places might work )

Wood Elves... well were going to need to make the Old World quite abit bigger... thats why im suggesting we shuffle Naggaroth abit south and forget most of the tiles east of the Mountain range (since nobody is going to settle them) and blow the old world out a little bit

Saving grace on the Old World

-We have no Portragul or Netherlands (that we need to represent)

what does this mean... well Rhye has shown that it is possible to make civs with no more than 2-3 cities can work... so we can replicate results... which is great for Wood Elves, Kislev, Tilea, Estalia, Norsca, Skaven, Beastman and it even opens up the idea of an Albion (although i wouldnt think it sutiable) so with some enlargements to the Old World we can make this work

Next installment in my plans for improving the world map... abit of work on the Old World and removing and refining intial barb placement.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

yeh ind and cathay with khemri is good

i think a random event just before Araby spawn should turn them into undead (khemri that is) or possible just after?

beastmen i think should spawn on the northern coast around the marienburs swamps and . .. .. .. ., if we make The Old world bi enough

 

[Masada]

hmmm just before Araby spawns would be a bit late... Araby experienced major wars just after Khermi became undead... and still suffers them to this day

As to beastmen meh...

 

[solwen]

thanks masada for the map review

I thinks it's best to modify a continent at a time as you said. You want to modify nagaroth or i do it ?

Another thing i think should be done is first of all to define exactly what each terrain and "special improvment" like mark of the old ones and such do.

First i think we need 2 forest and 2 jungle types: one normal and one "dread".
Jungles should give hammer and food like forest as ,even irl, i think there is even more food and woods in jungle that in normal forests. Moreover, the current state cripple a lot of civs like the LM, the amazons etc...
Forest should give 1 one hammer and food than now (as again forest are very very important in warhammer).
Mountains should be workable by all civ ( for 1 or 2 hammer) as you don't have to go on top of them to mine them...Again mountains are important in warhammer.

These changes are not hard to do i think and should be done asap (and will benefit to every maps)


Warning masada the fluff you posted is really old 2nd ed fluff.
Things like the midean civs and the amazons sisterhood are not relevent and official since the mid 90s.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

i agree that we need 2 kinds of forest and jungle.
i suggest we leave the normal jungle as is (but give special benefits to LM and Amazon so they can treat jungles as forests) and the second one. i think the reason they made jungles no good is to represent how difficult it is to get anythying for mjungles, they are so dense etc.
the 'dread' jungle (need a better name) should perhaps cause unhappiness in civs other than LM / Amazon to show peoples fear of the dread jungles. they can spawn barbs etc.
the same goes for forests.

id rather keep mountains workable by only Dwarfs, C. Dwarfs gobblins, hob gobblins, ogres and Skaven.

 

[Slaanesh]

I DLed solowen's world map, but when i start it up (with any race) it says i have been defeated before i can even start? what gives?

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

hmmm, sounds like the start locations are buggy... can you try to get into the world editor to see if any civs are there? if not have you tried redownloading it?

 

[Slaanesh]

Thanks Llama, another thing, just playing random maps, ive played 3 games and they all crash on turn 142? i know theres a way to turn on python error messages so ploeperpengel can check it out but how do i do that? thanks.

 

[Slaanesh]

no can do on the world editor.....im "defeated" before i even have a change to access any buttons. is there a way to get into the world editor without being in the game? ill try re-DLing it, but it happens with all 3 of the maps ive DLed.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

hmmm turn 142, sounds kinda like a horror movie dosnt it?

about python exceptions try this:

Im assuming no knowlege about this, so sorry if you already know this
open your '_Civ4Config' file in your main Civilization directory, then search for this line:

; Set to 1 for no python exception popups
HidePythonExceptions = 1

and change the last '1' to '0'

this should allow python error popups to pop up

when they do happen just press your 'print screen' button, then press [Alt]+[Tab] to close the game window without actually quitting, open paint and then press [Ctrl]+[v] to paste your screenshot. save as a .jpg and upload the error message here.

 

[solwen]

@Slaanesh: What race you were playing ? This is strange as every races gots his starting location and i never got this error

 

[Slaanesh]

I have tried it with all three maps avialable in the Map sticky, and i tried at least 4 different races with each. I found a similar problem in another non-warhammer thread, where BtS 3.13 seems to have an issue with spawning more than 18 Civs on a large or huge map. But why this would affect me and none of you i really have no idea.

Ive got the vanilla BtS patches.

@Llama. Ill turn on Python error messages and play through to turn 142. BtW, i played a game on your kinstrife map too see if it would do the same. it did, except it crashed one turn 156. the pattern of numbers divisable by four seems to suggest some problem with autosave?

 

[Slaanesh]

ok so i turned on python messages and the same thing happened. this time it was turn 148 and there was no python error messge, it said this program has encounted a problem and needs to close. you know the menu. "send report" "dont send report" and "debug" *which never does anything... it said there was an exception at 000ef620 in CvGameCoreDLL. not sure if this helps. i saved right before, so heres the file.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

for some reason i get an instant Crash to desktop when i try to load that save.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

hmmm, Slaanesh, try replacing your CvGameCoreDLL.dll with http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/71834/CvGameCoreDLL.zipTHIS one. see if that fixes anything

 

[solwen]

Slaanesh: But why this would affect me and none of you i really have no idea

Perhaps khorne doesn't want his hated cousin to play ?

 

[Slaanesh]

bah, that crazy blood god isnt cunning enough to come up with a plan that doesnt invlove smashing my skull