Was it acceptable to ally with Uncle Joe in WWII?

[kochman]

What you wrote there is trolling. Because you didn't address my point about Warsaw uprising at all, just reiterated your usual anti-Soviet bashing, like you did about a dozen times in this very thread.

My comment was 1) impersonal, and 2) completely within the context of the topic at hand.
You trolled me, on a personal level.

No, it was vice versa. USSR was far from perfect, but incomparable with USA's crimes.

Body count says you're wrong.

Where do you prefer to live, comrade? In the country with half of the world's GDP, possessing 70% of world's gold reserves and nuclear weapons, or in the country, completely devastated by recent war, lost 1/6 of its population and seen as an enemy by the richest and most developed nations of the world?

Hint, when you have to have a border designed to keep people in, rather than keep people out... you have a problem.
The KGB and its network of "rats" had the entire nation living in constant fear and unable to express free speech...
Elections... Multiple candidates... One party.
You're using WW2? What about in the 80s? Defections continued.
And, what did the average Russian citizen know of the USSR being considered the enemy? Could you legally get free press like that? Honest question.
Anyhow, I think anyone not really into the communist system would choose to live in the USA.

You can also ask yourself why the second managed to beat the first one in human spaceflight (where was W. Fon Braun, BTW?), building first nuclear power plant and other interesting things.

So what? The USA came in first in most categories... including feeding its people. That's what people care about. How well did those USSR nuke plants go? I seem to remember Chernobyl being a total disaster.

I think Russia and the Russians are truly great. Shame about the government and the oligarchs, though. They stink.

Very true! 1000+ years of oppressive leaders... they did have a small window of sanity a couple of times.
All hail Emperor Putin!

 

[Crezth]

Very true! 1000+ years of oppressive leaders... they did have a small window of sanity a couple of times.
All hail Emperor Putin!

Come on, that's just rude. Oppressive despots or no, they have long been a land of great arts.

 

[Dachs]

Come on, that's just rude. Oppressive despots or no, they have long been a land of great arts.

The popular perception is that that has only been in the last two centuries, actually. It's hard to find fans of Byzantinizing iconic art outside of Orthodox countries.

 

[kochman]

The popular perception is that that has only been in the last two centuries, actually. It's hard to find fans of Byzantinizing iconic art outside of Orthodox countries.

Arts such as music, writing and poetry should not be overlooked.

 

[Crezth]

The popular perception is that that has only been in the last two centuries, actually. It's hard to find fans of Byzantinizing iconic art outside of Orthodox countries.

Two centuries is pretty long. :>

 

[Dachs]

Arts such as music, writing and poetry should not be overlooked.

Russia didn't produce a whole lot of any of that stuff noticed by the rest of the world until after the beginning of the nineteenth century. That's the point.

Two centuries is pretty long. :>

In some contexts, yes. In this particular context, though?

 

[Crezth]

Well the frame of reference appears to be "Russia and the US," but I'll happily agree that I'm being unreasonable in my parsing.

 

[Dachs]

Well the frame of reference appears to be "Russia and the US," but I'll happily agree that I'm being unreasonable in my parsing.

And the US has been producing artsy janx equally as long, so...

 

[ace99]

Hint, when you have to have a border designed to keep people in, rather than keep people out... you have a problem.
The KGB and its network of "rats" had the entire nation living in constant fear and unable to express free speech...
Elections... Multiple candidates... One party.
You're using WW2? What about in the 80s? Defections continued.
And, what did the average Russian citizen know of the USSR being considered the enemy? Could you legally get free press like that? Honest question.
Anyhow, I think anyone not really into the communist system would choose to live in the USA.

After Stalin died he arrived at the gates of Heaven. St. Peter sent him to Hell. The next day more than a dozen devils were knocking on the gates of Paradise. St. Peter opened the doors and asked what they wanted.

The devils replied, “Yesterday Stalin arrived in Hell. We are the first refugees.”

 

[kochman]

Russia didn't produce a whole lot of any of that stuff noticed by the rest of the world until after the beginning of the nineteenth century. That's the point.

A fair point.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

How many people were trying to escape the West, in particular the USA, to go live in the USSR, comrade?

Tens of thousands of Blacks during the height of Stalin's purges, decided that USSR was a better place to live than the USA for them. That's a pretty effing strong statement. Also, the US routinely deported IWW activists and labor leaders to the USSR. As in, put them on a boat in the Pacific and dumped them on the shore of the Soviet Union.

The US is hardly imperialistic, btw, empires tend not to give land back

Like that land we gave back to Mexico, Spain, the Hawaiians, and the Native American tribes?

(again, see Eastern Europe). If we were an empire, we wouldn't give back places like Kuwait, Iraq, etc...

Soviet Union invaded and occupied all of Eastern Europe. The only thing they took was East Prussia. As you said, empires don't give land back, they don't rebuild countries they have occupied, or give them their independence voluntarily again.

So, uh, nice try, no cigar (like an old soviet bread store). To even compare the USSR to the USA is really ludicrous...

Indeed. USSR tried to change the world for the better of the people in it. USA has always served its own interests, and almost always only the interest of its rich and propertied class.

 

[kochman]

Tens of thousands of Blacks during the height of Stalin's purges, decided that USSR was a better place to live than the USA for them. That's a pretty effing strong statement. Also, the US routinely deported IWW activists and labor leaders to the USSR. As in, put them on a boat in the Pacific and dumped them on the shore of the Soviet Union.

Yes, there was a desire amongst American blacks to go there... understandably... And the CCCP rolled out the red carpet for them. Hardly a victory, in overall numbers of immigrants/emmigrants.

Like that land we gave back to Mexico, Spain, the Hawaiians, and the Native American tribes?

Yes, we had manifest destiny... but since then?

Soviet Union invaded and occupied all of Eastern Europe. The only thing they took was East Prussia. As you said, empires don't give land back, they don't rebuild countries they have occupied, or give them their independence voluntarily again.

Tell that to Czech, Hungary, Romania, Poland...

Indeed. USSR tried to change the world for the better of the people in it. USA has always served its own interests, and almost always only the interest of its rich and propertied class.

And failed miserably... see the violent revolutions and non-violent revolutions...
This is a weak point at best.

 

[red_elk]

Body count says you're wrong.

Not counting Stalin's terror, which was post Civil War purges, body count says I'm right.

Hint, when you have to have a border designed to keep people in, rather than keep people out... you have a problem.

Did you read my message? This one:
"Where do you prefer to live, comrade? In the country with half of the world's GDP, possessing 70% of world's gold reserves and nuclear weapons, or in the country, completely devastated by recent war, lost 1/6 of its population and seen as an enemy by the richest and most developed nations of the world?"

The KGB and its network of "rats" had the entire nation living in constant fear and unable to express free speech...

Kids in schools were telling political jokes to each other, including me. Half of class were shot after that, of course.
It's interesting how you are telling me that I was living in constant fear. Tell me more.
And you don't know what "rat" mean.

Elections... Multiple candidates... One party.

You have two parties with essentially the same programs. Mass media controlled by country's elite and big corporations. No chance of real opposition coming to power with elections.

You're using WW2? What about in the 80s? Defections continued.

Disparity in wealth remained, though reduced greatly. And 80's was a time of economic crysis.

And, what did the average Russian citizen know of the USSR being considered the enemy? Could you legally get free press like that? Honest question.

It's not about what average citizen knew, it's about necessity to keep large army in conditions of constant external threat.
Average Soviet citizen knew about this, it was enough to know what American press (for instance) write about the USSR.

So what? The USA came in first in most categories... including feeding its people.

Again, because you were many times richer. WW2 for us was a disaster, for you - great source of wealth.

How well did those USSR nuke plants go?

About as well as Challenger with Columbia. But we fixed them and continue to use.

1000+ years of oppressive leaders...

Says so much about quality of U.S. education.

 

[innonimatu]

The US is hardly imperialistic, btw, empires tend not to give land back (again, see Eastern Europe). If we were an empire, we wouldn't give back places like Kuwait, Iraq, etc...

Are you talking about the same US where the president's main concern during the cuban missile crisis was about how a Cuba with a string ally would be impossible to invade in the future and act as a barrier for future american invasions of central and southern american countries?

The USSR invaded Czechoslovakia and Hungary. The US invaded Guatemala, Panama, Cuba, Haiti (several times) and I don't know how many other countries. Most evil? I shouldn't even bother comparing, bad is bad. But since you want comparisons, by the end of the USSR period all the countries that they invaded and kept forcefully were doing better (apart from Afghanistan - and we all know who also intervened there, don't we) than the countries the US liked (and still likes) to treat as its playthings on the backyard. South America was the US's eastern Europe. And Western Europe wasn't just because it was politically too difficult for the US to do the same crap there: the europeans had retained the expectation of sovereignty, were too strong to openly attack and defeat quickly (though Gladio and other operations served the purpose of undermining democratic freedoms there) and could anyway easily go knocking on the USSR's doors if the US made excessive demands, before the US could force them in any practical way. In any case those countries never put the willingness of the US to maintain the "alliance" by force to the test, as they never tried to change their alignment.

 

[Crezth]

And the US has been producing artsy janx equally as long, so...

So they're equally as artsy!

 

[kochman]

Not counting Stalin's terror, which was post Civil War purges, body count says I'm right.

Oh, not counting one of the biggest mass murderers in history... hahahahaha

Did you read my message? This one:
"Where do you prefer to live, comrade? In the country with half of the world's GDP, possessing 70% of world's gold reserves and nuclear weapons, or in the country, completely devastated by recent war, lost 1/6 of its population and seen as an enemy by the richest and most developed nations of the world?"

I did, and I rebutted it.

It's interesting how you are telling me that I was living in constant fear. Tell me more.
And you don't know what "rat" mean.

I'm going to guess you were a kid, and the harsher realities of the situation weren't so apparent to you. Either that, or a ton of adult defectors were lying just so they could come to the USA and get better TV shows or something.

You have two parties with essentially the same programs. Mass media controlled by country's elite and big corporations. No chance of real opposition coming to power with elections.

You are saying the Soviet Elections, which didn't even take place until Gorby, were just as fair as US Elections?

Disparity in wealth remained, though reduced greatly. And 80's was a time of economic crysis.

Not in America.

It's not about what average citizen knew, it's about necessity to keep large army in conditions of constant external threat.
Average Soviet citizen knew about this, it was enough to know what American press (for instance) write about the USSR.

And so that is why the Soviet Army was so huge? It was just highly paranoid?

Again, because you were many times richer. WW2 for us was a disaster, for you - great source of wealth.

That's funny, because right after the war you guys managed to scrap together the money to come up with nukes, space flight, etc... Which is it?

About as well as Challenger with Columbia. But we fixed them and continue to use.

Yes, we had two Space Shuttles explode... tell me about the greatness of the Soviet space program and how many astronauts died?
And, our space shuttles exploding didn't end up permanently contaminating a huge area... And, you got Chernobyl working again? That's odd... because I just saw a show about it, the area is completely contaminated, and the nuke power plant is not working again.

Says so much about quality of U.S. education.

Yes, I am sure you would argue that your country has great progressive leaders... none that were backwards.

 

[kochman]

The USSR invaded Czechoslovakia and Hungary. The US invaded Guatemala, Panama, Cuba, Haiti (several times) and I don't know how many other countries.

Sorry, which of these countries became buffer states of the USA? In Panama we had the canal, but not based on the invasion in 1989... based on the contract in place for building the canal. Sure, the US fiddled around in a lot of things it shouldn't have, but it didn't enforce it with tank brigades and secret police.

Your comparisons are false, and therefore your premise is.

Look, I'm done arguing with those of you who think the USSR was not worse than the USA. You're entitled to your opinion. It's just that, in virtually every category, opinion, because the facts are the USA is a WAY more positive for the progress of the world than the USSR was... that's why the USSR didn't even make it 100 years, despite massive population and natural resources (and the explotation of Eastern Europe to boot).

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Sorry, which of these countries became buffer states of the USA?

Guatemala was in defense of an American fruit company's interest. We deposed a democratically-elected government that was opposing them, and reinstalled the old regime that was friendly to us and fully controlled by the United Fruit Company.

Nicaragua was controlled by a despicable despot on the American dole, a popular revolution removed them from power and instituted a democratic republic. We financed and trained the deposed rebels as insurgents against that democracy, people who attacked hospitals and schools, the symbols of the new populist government, and we also instituted a crippling embargo against them, including the illegal mining of their harbors. The allegation was that Ortega's government was receiving Soviet aid.

When we invaded Grenada, we actually violated a Commonwealth Realm's sovereignty, meaning the United Kingdom and Canada could have legally declared war on us, had they so chosen. Why? Because we didn't like their political system. The allegation again was that it would become a Soviet outpost.

We invaded and occupied the Dominican Republic twice, once in the teens to blatantly nation-build, and once in the 1960s because our dictatorial flunkie (Trujillo) got assassinated and a not-pro-American government came to power democratically, who we then deposed and installed a new pro-American, anti-democratic government. The allegation was that DR would became another Cuba close to our shores.

In Chile in 1970, Salvador Allende was democratically-elected with a socialist policy. Even before his government began to receive aid from the Soviets, Nixon promised "the Chilean economy will scream," and we boycotted their copper industry. Then, we funded and encouraged operatives in their military to overthrow Allende's government. In 1973 they did, executed Allende along with ten thousand communists, trade unionists, and other political dissidents, and installed a military dictatorship friendly to us.

In Haiti in 2004, we organized and funded a coup d'etat against Aristide, because he was growing Haitian economy and society on heavily-leftist principles that were not compatible with American corporations' use of Haiti as a commodity dumping ground. The new guys are much better lapdogs.

So it seems that we do create buffer states that are friendly to us, very often out of democratically elected governments. I guess Henry Kissinger summed it up best: "The issues are much too important for the [Chilean] voters to be left to decide for themselves."

 

[kochman]

I never said we were perfect... but our system was superior to that of the CCCP.
Pointing out things you and I likely both disapprove of in our US history in moot but still doesn't compare to what the CCCP did.

There really is no case for the USA being a worse force in this planet's history than the CCCP was... is that the case you are attempting to make?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

It very clearly is not. USSR intervened twice. USA has intervened dozens of times. Their imperialist, interventionist record is much worse and stretches much further around the globe.

The case I made was that the US behaved in ways very similar to the USSR, ways that you are criticizing them for while pretending that the US did not do those things.