Was it acceptable to ally with Uncle Joe in WWII?

[kochman]

It very clearly is not. USSR intervened twice. USA has intervened dozens of times. Their imperialist, interventionist record is much worse and stretches much further around the globe.

The case I made was that the US behaved in ways very similar to the USSR, ways that you are criticizing them for while pretending that the US did not do those things.

You apparently aren't reading what I write. I don't pretend the US is perfect. In fact, in almost every post, I have said we've done bad too...

The USSR "intervened" well more than twice, my friend. Angola, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Cuba, all over S. America (just because they were largely unsuccessful doesn't mean they didn't intervene), etc, etc.

And, you didn't answer my question.
Which do you think has had a more positive impact on the world... The CCCP or the USA?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

You apparently aren't reading what I write. I don't pretend the US is perfect. In fact, in almost every post, I have said we've done bad too...

The post of yours that I responded to was claiming that the US did not behave imperially and did not create buffer states like the USSR did in Eastern Europe. My posted comprehensively demonstrated that they did just that, in a far greater capacity than the USSR ever did.

The USSR "intervened" well more than twice, my friend. Angola,

That was a colonial war on independence. Estado Novo deserved to be overthrown. If the USA was on the right side of history, it would not have opposed the dismantling of Salazar's Fascist empire.

Vietnam,

Not invaded, sent aid.

Afghanistan,

Not invaded, requested aid. The PDPA lost control of its army during mass-defections in 1979, and sent an urgent request to the Soviets for help in stabilizing his government. Brezhnev almost didn't get involved.

Cuba,

Not invaded, requested aid. After the US denied him, mind you.

all over S. America (just because they were largely unsuccessful doesn't mean they didn't intervene), etc, etc.

Answering calls for aid is not military intervention. The USSR intervened in two countries: Hungary and Czechoslovakia.

And, you didn't answer my question.
Which do you think has had a more positive impact on the world... The CCCP or the USA?

The answer as a whole is obviously the United States. It has a much longer history, and very far reaching influence upon far more things that just military interventions. Culture, invention and innovation, and serving as the dynamo that largely drove 20th century economic development. I think it's greatest moment is yet to come, though.

If the question were purely about the impact of foreign policy, then the answer is the USSR, because it helped peoples get back on their feet, to industrialize and educate after departing from the colonial yoke, in ways that their former masters either half-heartedly undertook, or wholly absconded on their responsibility thereof. With the exception of the two countries I mentioned, Soviet foreign policy was conducted entirely on a voluntary basis.

 

[kochman]

The post of yours that I responded to was claiming that the US did not behave imperially and did not create buffer states like the USSR did in Eastern Europe. My posted comprehensively demonstrated that they did just that, in a far greater capacity than the USSR ever did.

Those were not buffer states... totally different concept. We manipulated them, sure, but we did not install military and send in tanks.

That was a colonial war on independence. Estado Novo deserved to be overthrown. If the USA was on the right side of history, it would not have opposed the dismantling of Salazar's Fascist empire.

Oh, so it is only imperialist intervention when the USA did it. The Soviets sided with the people...

Not invaded, sent aid.

Yeah, same with the US and Chile, I thought we were talking about imperialist intervention here.

Not invaded, requested aid. The PDPA lost control of its army during mass-defections in 1979, and sent an urgent request to the Soviets for help in stabilizing his government. Brezhnev almost didn't get involved.

Wow, so, the USSR didn't invade Afghanistan? How do you figure that? I'd love to here it.
If you would spin things for the USA the same as you do for the USSR, there wouldn't be a debate. You are taking a hugely USSR biased approach in your evaluation of these events from both teams. It makes debate difficult.

Not invaded, requested aid. After the US denied him, mind you.

Intervention...

Answering calls for aid is not military intervention. The USSR intervened in two countries: Hungary and Czechoslovakia.

Ok, so, now we are talking about only military intervention... though you listed Chile, which was not US Military intervention. Which is it? So we can have some kind of meaningful debate consistency would be awesome.
The CCCP intervened military, despite whatever you say, in Afghanistan... It also took by force the Baltic States in that sweet little deal Uncle Joe made with Addy at the start of WW2.
It makes it really hard to debate when the other party denies clear and accepted facts like that the USSR invaded Afghanistan... in order to have their puppets... The same thing you assail the USA for...

The answer as a whole is obviously the United States.

Freedom has a lot to do with that. Our elected officials have often erred (as they will anywhere in the world), but on a way less barbarous scale. However, more importantly, the average citizen (eventually in the case of some minorities) got to be free... speak free... exchange ideas freely and without fear... vote for the best liar...

If the question were purely about the impact of foreign policy, then the answer is the USSR

If that is true, why did the USSR have to have military interventions in Hungary and Czech?
Why did the Eastern Bloc have to revolt to throw off the Soviet yoke?

because it helped peoples get back on their feet, to industrialize and educate after departing from the colonial yoke

Tell that "colonial yoke" malarky to the countries of E. Europe who had their resources completely exploited...

Soviet foreign policy was conducted entirely on a voluntary basis.

By the communists within the country... which then sought to make the country communist regardless of what the rest of the population wanted. That is not "entirely" "voluntary", that is, asserting the will of the few regardless of the masses because the will of the few matched the will of the few in charge of the CCCP. I think this is the most important thing you are failing to grasp.
Communist aid/intervention went out to minorities who wanted communism in so many cases... but you are classifying it as something glorious, perhaps because you support the idea of the USSR, which is absurdly out of touch with reality in and of itself.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

It makes debate difficult.

This is not a debate, this is me stating facts and you denying them on an ideological basis.

 

[kochman]

This is not a debate, this is me stating facts and you denying them on an ideological basis.

Hahahahaha
I asked you to be consistent... but I guess that is not going to happen.

Ok Cheezy... You're right, I surrender...
The glorious CCCP was helping Afghanistan most righteously when they, against their personal desire, sent in the soldiers of the revolution.
It was not an invasion, as your facts would have it. It was a selfless mission designed to bring social reform and happiness.
And I'm the ideologue?

 

[Lone Wolf]

I for one am fine with calling the Afghan War an invasion. When you send soldiers to a place that didn't conduct operations against you, you invade it. The Winter War was also an invasion.

I, however, agree with Cheezy's following comment:

The case I made was that the US behaved in ways very similar to the USSR, ways that you are criticizing them for while pretending that the US did not do those things.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Why is this such a challenge to understand? The Afghan government requested that the Soviet government send the Soviet military into Afghanistan to help the Afghan government stabilize Afghanistan. That's not an invasion. The Soviets didn't send their military there to fight the Afghan government's forces or the Afghan military, or to impose their will on Afghanistan, or to impose communism upon an unwilling populace. The socialist revolution in Afghanistan (called the Saur Revolution) happened nearly two years before the Soviets sent their military into that country.

That's nothing like the Winter War, which was an invasion.

Get it yet?

 

[kochman]

I, however, agree with Cheezy's following comment:

Well, I have also condemned the USA's actions, so I hope that isn't the part you are agreeing with.

Why is this such a challenge to understand? The Afghan government requested that the Soviet government send the Soviet military into Afghanistan to help the Afghan government stabilize Afghanistan. That's not an invasion. The Soviets didn't send their military there to fight the Afghan government's forces or the Afghan military, or to impose their will on Afghanistan, or to impose communism upon an unwilling populace. The socialist revolution in Afghanistan (called the Saur Revolution) happened nearly two years before the Soviets sent their military into that country.

That's nothing like the Winter War, which was an invasion.

Get it yet?

Cheezy. It was an invasion. You can talk till you are blue in the face about how it wasn't, but it was. I have never even heard someone deny it before... it's rather fascinating.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion

Invasion (sometimes interchangeable with Conquest) is a military offensive consisting of all, or large parts of the armed forces of one geopolitical entity aggressively entering territory controlled by another such entity, generally with the objective of either conquering, liberating or re-establishing control or authority over a territory, forcing the partition of a country, altering the established government or gaining concessions from said government, or a combination thereof. An invasion can be the cause of a war, be a part of a larger strategy to end a war, or it can constitute an entire war in itself.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/invasion?s=t

in·va·sion
   [in-vey-zhuhn]
noun
an act or instance of invading or entering as an enemy, especially by an army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan

The Soviet war in Afghanistan was a nine-year war during the Cold War fought by the Soviet Army and the Marxist-Leninist government of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan[20] against the Afghan Mujahideen guerrilla movement and foreign "Arab–Afghan" volunteers. The mujahideen received wide military and financial support from Pakistan,[21] also receiving direct and indirect support by the United States[2][3][4] and China.[22][23] The Afghan government fought with the intervention of the Soviet Union as its primary ally.[21]

 

[kochman]

Per the Mujahideen, the atheist Soviet forces were the enemy that was militarily invading to push their view point.
Therefore, they viewed it as an invasion. As do most.

But, comrade, this is tiresome. If you want to believe it wasn't an invasion, more power to you. That's the beauty of the USA. In the USSR, I would have been in big trouble for having such a debate openly.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Atheist policy was also instituted by the Afghan government before the intervention, not the Soviets. It was actually the cause of the mass defections that necessitated the call for Soviet help.

Learn some history and you won't look so clueless.

 

[kochman]

Atheist policy was also instituted by the Afghan government before the intervention, not the Soviets. It was actually the cause of the mass defections that necessitated the call for Soviet help.

Learn some history and you won't look so clueless.

You're actively denying that the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, but I'm clueless?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I didn't say they didn't go into Afghanistan, I said it wasn't an invasion. And I have conclusively proven such that a chimpanzee could understand it.

 

[kochman]

I didn't say they didn't go into Afghanistan, I said it wasn't an invasion. And I have conclusively proven such that a chimpanzee could understand it.

No, you've shown it such that you've conclusively proven it to yourself. I understand why you think it, but I think your interpretation of the facts is utterly skewed.

It was an invasion.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

"Nu-uh! It was an invasion! I don't see your evidence otherwise!"

 

[kochman]

Great picture. Ads a lot to the debate here.

What's funny is, you're claiming I'm close minded, apparently.
However, a hugely overwhelming percentage of the world would agree with me, that it was an invasion... and you have, quite oddly I might add, a history of highly pro-CCCP posts behind you. So, whose mind is closed really?

 

[red_elk]

Oh, not counting one of the biggest mass murderers in history... hahahahaha

Ok, then let's count victims of slave trading too.
Still "hahahahaha", comrade?

I did, and I rebutted it.

How you rebutted it?
You disagree that the US was vastly richer?
Or you think it has nothing to do with people wanted to live there?
Explain please, "I rebutted it" won't work here

I'm going to guess you were a kid, and the harsher realities of the situation weren't so apparent to you.

That's your problem, you are going to guess whereas I have first hand experience.

You are saying the Soviet Elections, which didn't even take place until Gorby, were just as fair as US Elections?

I'm saying that Soviet election took place before Gorby.
And that both were unfair, in USSR we were electing one out of two communists, you are electing one out of two capitalists.

Not in America.

In America it was in 1930-s and 1970-s

And so that is why the Soviet Army was so huge? It was just highly paranoid?

It has something to do with Cold War, equally huge NATO army and something called "operation unthinkable", "plan dropshot" and "totality"
Hope you are not going to deny existence of British/American plans to attack USSR, because we were just discussing them here.

That's funny, because right after the war you guys managed to scrap together the money to come up with nukes, space flight, etc... Which is it?

When you need money to survive, you will find a way to save them.
Nukes and space flight both are defence-related technologies.

Yes, we had two Space Shuttles explode... tell me about the greatness of the Soviet space program and how many astronauts died?

There were two fatal incidents with cosmonauts, four people died.
Soviet and Russian manned spaceships are more reliable than American, if you want to hear this.

And, you got Chernobyl working again? That's odd...

I didn't say that.
It's not even in Russia.

Yes, I am sure you would argue that your country has great progressive leaders... none that were backwards.

You know, this may be new and interesting information for you, but our country as all the others had many different leaders, including oppressive and progressive.
But your words about "1000+ years of oppressive leaders..." characterize your level of education, not the quality of Russian leaders.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Great picture. Ads a lot to the debate here.

What's funny is, you're claiming I'm close minded, apparently.
However, a hugely overwhelming percentage of the world would agree with me, that it was an invasion... and you have, quite oddly I might add, a history of highly pro-CCCP posts behind you. So, whose mind is closed really?

This is ad hominem. You're saying I'm wrong because I'm a communist, not because of any argument on your own part. Do your own research, I challenge you to prove me wrong on one thing I've said.

Facts are not decided by democracy. Hell, even the UN didn't call it an invasion. They did say the USSR should withdraw and let the Afghans settle things free from outside influence, but they never called it an invasion. You know why? Because it wasn't.

There is nothing left to add to this debate. I have done more than enough to prove that the Soviet involvement in Afghanistan was not an invasion. You choose to deny those facts because it's ideologically inconvenient for you.

 

[red_elk]

What's funny is, you're claiming I'm close minded, apparently.

You are. You don't hear the opponents' arguments and your own arguments are often "I'm right" style.
"I rebutted it"
"It was invasion"
etc.

 

[kochman]

This is ad hominem. You're saying I'm wrong because I'm a communist, not because of any argument on your own part. Do your own research, I challenge you to prove me wrong on one thing I've said.

Facts are not decided by democracy. Hell, even the UN didn't call it an invasion. They did say the USSR should withdraw and let the Afghans settle things free from outside influence, but they never called it an invasion. You know why? Because it wasn't.

There is nothing left to add to this debate. I have done more than enough to prove that the Soviet involvement in Afghanistan was not an invasion. You choose to deny those facts because it's ideologically inconvenient for you.

The UN, with a security counsel that had the CCCP as a permanent member... amazing it didn't call it an invasion, that...

Again, you've proven only to yourself, and maybe one or two others, your point.
However, history is history. It was a military invasion, it was being repelled militarily as well.

You're trying to limit the idea of an "invasion" to one that is actively against the current sitting power, only... so, in that sense, you would be right. I think that's too strict of a way to interpret the term...

Those are the reasons why I think you are wrong... not because you are a communist.

And pointing out you being a communist is just my way of saying, I see why you see it so bizarrely. You tend to side with the CCCP in about 90% of issues, so why would you not here? It's a bias, and it is fair to note it.

Your assertion that the USSR did not invade Afghanistan is honestly one I've never heard before in my life... and you're right, this debate is over, it was really over when you started insulting me above.