Was it acceptable to ally with Uncle Joe in WWII?

[Ajidica]

Actually he did... Ukrainians, Cossacks, military generals/commanders.

1. More Russians than Ukrainians died in the famine that struck Russia and the Ukraine at that time. The only thing surprising about it was that it wasn't worse considering how much Russian and Ukrainian agriculture had suffered during the First World War and the Civil War.
2. Stalin did not embark on a campaign to actualy destroy the Cossacks in the same way Hitler did to the Jews. He was rather brutal and repressive toward them, but being brutal and repressive != genocide.

Which explains his invasion of Finland and later taking the entire Eastern Bloc while funding movements elsewhere in the world.

None of which was promoting World Revolution! If anything, it was the antithesis of promoting World Revolution as Stalin was getting involved in realpolitik and supporting non-revolutionary figures who happened to be vaguely leftist but certiantly not Communist. Stalin's support of foreign leaders who happened to be vaguely leftist is no different from our support of leaders who happened to be anti-left.

Lastly, with regards to Eastern Europe, Truman was simply acknowledging the physical realities: there was nothing he could do short of war to prevent Soviet domination in Eastern Europe. The Soviet Union had already established provisional governments and were in control politicaly, militarily, and administratively. Unless Truman was willing to go to war, there was no way to get a truely independent Eastern Europe (even then the Soviets would have dominated them).

 

[luiz]

1. More Russians than Ukrainians died in the famine that struck Russia and the Ukraine at that time. The only thing surprising about it was that it wasn't worse considering how much Russian and Ukrainian agriculture had suffered during the First World War and the Civil War.

Proportionally far more Ukranians died.

And to blame it all on the wars is, well, lame apologism. Agriculture collapsed because of the policies implemented by Stalin, like forced collectivization, de-kulakization, etc. The inhumane and nazi-esque brutality with which the Soviets treated Ukranian farmers in the face of starvation was also a major factor.

To say that the only surprise is that it wasn't worse is sickening.

 

[kochman]

1. More Russians than Ukrainians died in the famine that struck Russia and the Ukraine at that time. The only thing surprising about it was that it wasn't worse considering how much Russian and Ukrainian agriculture had suffered during the First World War and the Civil War.
2. Stalin did not embark on a campaign to actualy destroy the Cossacks in the same way Hitler did to the Jews. He was rather brutal and repressive toward them, but being brutal and repressive != genocide.

None of which was promoting World Revolution! If anything, it was the antithesis of promoting World Revolution as Stalin was getting involved in realpolitik and supporting non-revolutionary figures who happened to be vaguely leftist but certiantly not Communist. Stalin's support of foreign leaders who happened to be vaguely leftist is no different from our support of leaders who happened to be anti-left.

Lastly, with regards to Eastern Europe, Truman was simply acknowledging the physical realities: there was nothing he could do short of war to prevent Soviet domination in Eastern Europe. The Soviet Union had already established provisional governments and were in control politicaly, militarily, and administratively. Unless Truman was willing to go to war, there was no way to get a truely independent Eastern Europe (even then the Soviets would have dominated them).

Nothing you've said actually refutes what I said... it's just regurgitation of history opinions found in common text books. It also comes of as apologetic and making a sensitive case for Stalin... I don't think that is a good idea, but to each his own.

 

[Leoreth]

No, Stalin and Hitler were both real life villains. You are correct. Hitler wanted to dominate the world... denying this is pointless.

Just because you live in Hollywood history world doesn't make your position obvious. Just asserting your position doesn't convince me, and considering that Hitler clearly laid out his motivations and goals, I'd say the burden of proof is on you.

Trade programs are not acts of war. FDR kept us out of it until we had no choice.

So essentially gifting weaponry, warships, and industrial infrastructure for payment that was to be determined later is trade? I wonder what the countries that faced American vessels under British flag had to say about American non-involvement in the war. Just because you don't officially declare war doesn't mean you're not involved in it. And FDR easily could have taken a course of action that avoided a war at least in Europe.

 

[ELITEOFWARMAN8]

Just because you live in Hollywood history world doesn't make your position obvious. Just asserting your position doesn't convince me, and considering that Hitler clearly laid out his motivations and goals, I'd say the burden of proof is on you.


So essentially gifting weaponry, warships, and industrial infrastructure for payment that was to be determined later is trade? I wonder what the countries that faced American vessels under British flag had to say about American non-involvement in the war. Just because you don't officially declare war doesn't mean you're not involved in it. And FDR easily could have taken a course of action that avoided a war at least in Europe.

So you think we should have stayed out of WW2? I hope not.

 

[Leoreth]

No, I don't think that. The US had good reasons to enter the war, even more so than they knew when they made the decision.

What I'm saying is that pre-emptive self defense wasn't one of them.

 

[kochman]

Just because you live in Hollywood history world doesn't make your position obvious. Just asserting your position doesn't convince me, and considering that Hitler clearly laid out his motivations and goals, I'd say the burden of proof is on you.

It's written out by Hitler in a book you may be familiar with... Mein Kampf. It is amazing to me I would have to remind anyone of this fact.

So essentially gifting weaponry, warships, and industrial infrastructure for payment that was to be determined later is trade? I wonder what the countries that faced American vessels under British flag had to say about American non-involvement in the war. Just because you don't officially declare war doesn't mean you're not involved in it. And FDR easily could have taken a course of action that avoided a war at least in Europe.

Do you also need a definition of war supplied here?
Is Iran at war with the USA? Britain? Because they do all that, even provide advisors, to insurgents in Iraq.

How exactly could FDR have avoided war in Europe? Hitler, who was situated in Europe, declared war on the USA. Are you suggesting that FDR should have just said, come and get us when you are able and done nothing else? Just sat back and thumbed his nose at Hitler?

I'm sorry that both of your claims were so easily debased.
I am not sure why you are continuing the fight in the face of the obvious.

 

[Borachio]

I've read Mein Kampf. I must have missed the part where he said he wanted to conquer the world. Easily done, because it must surely be the dullest read I've ever attempted. Can you quote me the relevant section, please?

 

[kochman]

I've read Mein Kampf. I must have missed the part where he said he wanted to conquer the world. Easily done, because it must surely be the dullest read I've ever attempted. Can you quote me the relevant section, please?

Dominate =/= conquer

Hitler describes the struggle for world domination as an ongoing racial, cultural, and political battle between Aryans and Jews.

 

[red_elk]

Actually he did... Ukrainians, Cossacks,

There was no policy to exterminate Ukrainians, and could not be. Starting from the fact that in Ukraine many people can barely distinguish ethnic Russians and Ukrainians, people are mixed to one ethnicity for the last few hundreds years. With exception of Western Ukrainian minority.

In drought of 1931-1932, as well as people in Ukraine, comparable number of non-Ukrainians died. In relative terms, Kazakhstan probably suffered the most.

military generals/commanders.

A few percent of military commanders were repressed in purges of 1937-1938. It may sound strange, but no, Stalin didn't kill all his generals.

BTW, Formaldehyde was right when he said about an order of magnitude exaggerating. Some numbers of victims, such as given by Solzhenitsyn number of GULAG inmates (about 15 millions, "In the first circle") are exaggerated almost exactly by the order of magnitude. The real number varied between 1-2 millions, depending on year.

 

[Borachio]

<nvm>

 

[kochman]

There was no policy to exterminate Ukrainians, and could not be. Starting from the fact that in Ukraine many people can barely distinguish ethnic Russians and Ukrainians, people are mixed to one ethnicity for the last few hundreds years. With exception of Western Ukrainian minority.

Ukranians see it differently.

In drought of 1931-1932, as well as people in Ukraine, comparable number of non-Ukrainians died. In relative terms, Kazakhstan probably suffered the most.

So, you honestly believe that millions and people of people died of starvation strictly because of a draught in such a massive collective farming society?
Interesting.

A few percent of military commanders were repressed in purges of 1937-1938. It may sound strange, but no, Stalin didn't kill all his generals.

No one said all his generals. He killed enough to cripple the military pretty effectively, as the failure in Finland shows.

 

[red_elk]

A total of 14 million people went through the Gulag system. It is said.

No, he was clearly talking about number of people who were in prisons simultaneously, not the entire number who went through Soviet penal system. I can find his quote, if you wish.

 

[Borachio]

<nvm>

 

[red_elk]

Ukranians see it differently.

I wouldn't say so, I have many Ukrainian friends and close relatives. I'm partially Ukrainian myself.

So, you honestly believe that millions and people of people died of starvation strictly because of a draught in such a massive collective farming society?
Interesting.

To put it simply, yes. Because similar famines happened several times in Russia, in XIX century and first half of XX.
It's just a coincidence that you know only about the latest one, because, you know, evil Stalin was exterminating Ukrainians.

No one said all his generals. He killed enough to cripple the military pretty effectively, as the failure in Finland shows.

The USSR won that war. If you want to call it failure on Soviet side, the failure was on the side of intelligence, rather than military commanders.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Proportionally far more Ukranians died.

So you think it was actually a nationwide-organized famine, designed to get rid of the Ukrainians before everyone else, through attrition?

And to blame it all on the wars is, well, lame apologism. Agriculture collapsed because of the policies implemented by Stalin, like forced collectivization, de-kulakization, etc.

Besides the fact that 1/3 of cultivated farm land was destroyed by the Civil War, along with most of its farmers, there were also droughts and famines before the implementation of either of those policies.

As for the Kulaks, it was they, not Stalin, who dealt the most decisive blow to agriculture: rather than surrender their cattle to be collectivized, they undertook to slaughter 2/3 of the entire cattle head count in the Soviet Union; a number that would not even reach pre-World War I levels again until the 1950s.

The inhumane and nazi-esque brutality with which the Soviets treated Ukranian farmers in the face of starvation was also a major factor.

The Soviets dealt with grain-hoarders as grain-hoarders are always dealt with in times of hunger: expropriation. Who should starve, a family of farmers, or a small city? Clearly the lesser evil is what the Soviets chose.

 

[kochman]

I wouldn't say so, I have many Ukrainian friends and close relatives. I'm partially Ukrainian myself.

Ummmm, I guess your anectdotal story abolishes all the stuff posted on the internets by Ukranians.

To put it simply, yes. Because similar famines happened several times in Russia, in XIX century and first half of XX.
It's just a coincidence that you know only about the latest one, because, you know, evil Stalin was exterminating Ukrainians.

Not just Ukranians...

The USSR won that war. If you want to call it failure on Soviet side, the failure was on the side of intelligence, rather than military commanders.

If you say so. Historians who aren't regularly posting in defense of all things CCCP tend to disagree with you, however.

 

[red_elk]

Ummmm, I guess your anectdotal story abolishes all the stuff posted on the internets by Ukranians.
Not just Ukranians...

Not abolished, rather confirmed.
Vocal minority of Western Ukrainians would disagree of course.
If you are not Ukrainian or was specifically interested in Russian-Ukrainian relations, I think I'm a little better informed on this question.

If you say so. Historians who aren't regularly posting in defense of all things CCCP tend to disagree with you, however.

Which historians did you read about Winter War?

Edit:
One example of another attempt to exterminate people of Russian Empire, before Stalin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1891–1892

 

[Ajidica]

@Cheezy/red_elk: My history prof last semester talked about new documents from the Soviet records indicates that much of the de-Kulakization and collectivization was begun by the local Soviet officials, and the the Soviet leadership simply approved something that was already occuring. Is this actualy true or was she just nutty?

 

[kochman]

@Red Elk...
Clearly, you are better informed... repeatedly talking about the minority of western Ukranians... and suggesting their millions of voices were abolished by your knowledge from Moscow.

Which is just barely a minority, in the sense that they make up a huge percentage of the country...

Look out, your bias is showing.