Was there any realistic or worthwhile French goal in the peninsular war?

[Kyriakos]

The peninsular war started at 1808, following Napoleon's decision to install his brother as the new king of Spain. It was preceded by the invasion of Portugal (by France and Spain) and more crucially by a local revolt in Madrid, which quickly led to clashes between Marshal Murat's forces sent to pacify the population and civilians (the first clash, as well as the reprisal, are immortalized in two paintings by Goya; OP shows part of the latter). After Napoleon installed his brother as king, mass revolts (and ultimately a British army arriving) were only a matter of time.

I wish to ask what Napoleon's reason for taking over Spain was. Surely he already had larger and better territories as vassals, and Spain would require hundreds of thousands of French soldiers to guard (as it did historically in that long campaign).
Unless there was a real risk of Spain siding with Britain, I don't see the strategy in what happened. Besides, Napoleon already had narrowly avoided disaster in battle before all this - at Eylau - so he couldn't just have been feeling invincible.

Maybe @Gedemon (as the reason may have been presented in French schools )

 

[Birdjaguar]

Remember hindsight is 20/20.

By December of 1807 Napoleon was in control of Lisbon and most of Portugal but his plans to capture the Portuguese fleet had failed. At that point Napoleon was at the height of his power and needed to enforce the Continental System against Britain. Spanish ports were still open to British trade and Spain was weak and ripe for the taking. He was an opportunist and the Spanish government was faced with both corruption and internal strife between the king and his son. His army was already in Spain and set up in most major cities and the Spanish army considered as a weak opponent. Napoleon created an excuse to pull the trigger on his plan to take over Spain in Feb. 1808. He had two choices: end the Bourbon House of Spain altogether or set up or set up Charles' son, the popular Ferdinand, as a puppet. He chose the former and it was a mistake.

Napoleon's goals were tied closely to enforcing the Continental System against England. He failed to understand the Spanish people and their resistance to a regime change. On April 1, Madrid revolted and it was all downhill from there.

 

[Josu]

In aditon to what Birdjaguar says he wanted to neutralize the Bourbons so that their legitimacy would not extend to the Bonaparte dynasty in France.

 

[Kyriakos]

neutralize the Bourbons so that their legitimacy would not extend to the Bonaparte dynasty in France.

Interesting. Was that fending off a very long-term erosive effect? (because in 1808, Napoleon could field half a million french soldiers so no attack would threaten him anyway- let alone how many germans/polish/others he could enlist).
As for the continental system, besides that it wasn't working anyway, Spain was close enough (and weak enough) that Napoleon could threaten its own dynasty to at least pretend to enforce it.

 

[Josu]

Interesting. Was that fending off a very long-term erosive effect? (because in 1808, Napoleon could field half a million french soldiers so no attack would threaten him anyway- let alone how many germans/polish/others he could enlist).
As for the continental system, besides that it wasn't working anyway, Spain was close enough (and weak enough) that Napoleon could threaten its own dynasty to at least pretend to enforce it.

Last French kings to date where Bourbons, same dinasty as in Spain, he was affraid of Spanish Bourbons claiming for legitimacy of French throne.
Carlos IV and Fernando VII were not particularly intelligent, to say the least. Moreover, they were corrupt and sought to cling to power at all costs, which led them to align themselves with Napoleon, thinking it would benefit them. However, Napoleon took advantage of the situation to install his brother as ruler and thus attempt to remove the Bourbons from the equation. Nonetheless, Napoleon underestimated the peculiarities of the Spanish people, who initiated the War of Independence.

 

[Kyriakos]

Last French kings to date where Bourbons, same dinasty as in Spain, he was affraid of Spanish Bourbons claiming for legitimacy of French throne.
Carlos IV and Fernando VII were not particularly intelligent, to say the least. Moreover, they were corrupt and sought to cling to power at all costs, which led them to align themselves with Napoleon, thinking it would benefit them. However, Napoleon took advantage of the situation to install his brother as ruler and thus attempt to remove the Bourbons from the equation. Nonetheless, Napoleon underestimated the peculiarities of the Spanish people, who initiated the War of Independence.

There is a quote by Napoleon himself, where he says that his usurpation of the throne of Spain (to give to his brother) was too obviously greedy. That would go against the notion that he actually feared Spain's concurrent kings would argue they have a claim on France. Furthermore, at the time France had a massive (and well-trained) army, while Spain had a ridiculous army - as was shown by its defeats when France invaded.
There is, of course, also the very low probability of Spain's monarchy allying with Britain, as they were adversaries (and Spain had been allied to France since 1796).

 

[Josu]

The is a quote by Napoleon himself, where he says that his usurpation of the throne of Spain (to give to his brother) was too obviously greedy. That would go against the notion that he actually feared Spain's concurrent kings would argue they have a claim on France. Furthermore, at the time France had a massive (and well-trained) army, while Spain had a ridiculous army - as was shown by its defeats when France invaded.
There is, of course, also the very low probability of Spain's monarchy allying with Britain, as they were adversaries (and Spain had been allied to France since 1796).

There is another quote in a book by the spanish historian Vicente Palacio saying "The biggest mistake I've made is the expedition to Spain. I embarked on this venture because I believed it was necessary to expel the Bourbons from Spain to remain secure on the French throne."

 

[Birdjaguar]

Firm control of Spain would allow firm control of Portugal which was the driving force behind acting in the first place.

 

[JohannaK]

Remember hindsight is 20/20.

By December of 1807 Napoleon was in control of Lisbon and most of Portugal but his plans to capture the Portuguese fleet had failed. At that point Napoleon was at the height of his power and needed to enforce the Continental System against Britain. Spanish ports were still open to British trade and Spain was weak and ripe for the taking. He was an opportunist and the Spanish government was faced with both corruption and internal strife between the king and his son. His army was already in Spain and set up in most major cities and the Spanish army considered as a weak opponent. Napoleon created an excuse to pull the trigger on his plan to take over Spain in Feb. 1808. He had two choices: end the Bourbon House of Spain altogether or set up or set up Charles' son, the popular Ferdinand, as a puppet. He chose the former and it was a mistake.

Napoleon's goals were tied closely to enforcing the Continental System against England. He failed to understand the Spanish people and their resistance to a regime change. On April 1, Madrid revolted and it was all downhill from there.

It was the 2nd of May that Spain rose in revolt, it is still a regional holiday in Madrid.

 

[tangjinfeng]

According to Charles Oman's account in A History of the Peninsular War, Napoleon never trusted Spain. As an ally, it was too weak; as an enemy, it was too dangerous. The fuse should be the Fourth Coalition against France. Godoy attempted to form a "neutral" alliance with Prussia and other countries. Mistakenly believing that Napoleon had been defeated in the Battle of Eylau, he issued a proclamation in Madrid calling on Spaniards to arm themselves (without specifying who their enemy was). However, when he learned of Napoleon's victory, he was filled with panic and unnecessarily apologized to Napoleon, which strengthened Napoleon's resolve to directly take over Spain.

 

[Kyriakos]

According to Charles Oman's account in A History of the Peninsular War, Napoleon never trusted Spain. As an ally, it was too weak; as an enemy, it was too dangerous. The fuse should be the Fourth Coalition against France. Godoy attempted to form a "neutral" alliance with Prussia and other countries. Mistakenly believing that Napoleon had been defeated in the Battle of Eylau, he issued a proclamation in Madrid calling on Spaniards to arm themselves (without specifying who their enemy was). However, when he learned of Napoleon's victory, he was filled with panic and unnecessarily apologized to Napoleon, which strengthened Napoleon's resolve to directly take over Spain.

Was there ever any plan to give Spain some land in Portugal and thus perpetually prevent it from allying to Britain?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Napoleon's plan was to control Portugal like he controlled his other European nations: dominate existing rulers or install his own. The revolt in Spain came too soon after he captured Lisbon to carry out any further designs. I have never read any where that he had plans to unite Spain and Portugal or to change their borders. Controlling Portugal would have met his goal of ending British influence and access. That failed when Spain revolted.

 

[tangjinfeng]

Napoleon did promise to partition Portugal, but instead of handing it over to Spain, it would be established as a separate principality (Principality of the Algarves) for Godoy. The deposed "King of Etruria" in the Spanish Bourbon family, Charles II, would receive the Kingdom of Northern Portugal as compensation. However, Spain itself would gain no benefits.
And it turned out to be a scam in the end.

 

[AdrienIer]

I don't know much about the spanish war (french education has a lot to cover, and there's already a lot to talk about in the 1789-1815 era), but from what I understand Napoleon discarded his diplomats' warnings about the Bayonne meetings where he forced both contestants into abdication. He wanted a strong ruler in Spain to enforce the continental blocade against GB (Spain already being a strong ally of his), and decided to use the weakness of the two contestants to install someone he could trust. As Talleyrand feared, it led to revolts and eventual defeats. I'd say that he was blinded by the fact that similar tactics had worked in Naples, the NL etc, so he discarded the possibility that Spain would react negatively.
Overall, dude that got into power by doing bold powergrabbing moves thought doing bold powergrabbing moves always worked and lost all his power due to too many unsuccessfull bold powergrabbing moves.

 

[Kyriakos]

I don't know much about the spanish war (french education has a lot to cover, and there's already a lot to talk about in the 1789-1815 era), but from what I understand Napoleon discarded his diplomats' warnings about the Bayonne meetings where he forced both contestants into abdication. He wanted a strong ruler in Spain to enforce the continental blocade against GB (Spain already being a strong ally of his), and decided to use the weakness of the two contestants to install someone he could trust. As Talleyrand feared, it led to revolts and eventual defeats. I'd say that he was blinded by the fact that similar tactics had worked in Naples, the NL etc, so he discarded the possibility that Spain would react negatively.
Overall, dude that got into power by doing bold powergrabbing moves thought doing bold powergrabbing moves always worked and lost all his power due to too many unsuccessfull bold powergrabbing moves.

And apparently he was close to not getting into power at all (becoming consul), again due to the very heavy-handed approach even for a coup.

Thank you both for the new information ^^

 

[Birdjaguar]

Napoleon did promise to partition Portugal, but instead of handing it over to Spain, it would be established as a separate principality (Principality of the Algarves) for Godoy. The deposed "King of Etruria" in the Spanish Bourbon family, Charles II, would receive the Kingdom of Northern Portugal as compensation. However, Spain itself would gain no benefits.
And it turned out to be a scam in the end.

Thanks.

The Treaty of Fontainebleau was a secret agreement signed on 27 October 1807 in Fontainebleau, France between King Charles IV of Spain and the French Emperor Napoleon. Under the treaty, the House of Braganza was to be driven from the Kingdom of Portugal with the country subsequently divided into three regions, the north and south to be ruled by Duke of Parma and Spanish minister Manuel Godoy respectively, while the provinces of Beira, Tras-os-Montes and Portuguese Estremadura would remain in abeyance until a later peace. Within seven months the government of Spain had collapsed and two Spanish kings abdicated. In August 1808 Napoleon imposed his brother Joseph as King of Spain.

Negotiated and agreed between Don Eugenio Izquierdo [es], plenipotentiary of Charles IV, and Marshal Géraud Duroc as the representative of Napoleon,> the accord contained 14 articles along with supplementary provisions relating to troop allocations for the planned invasion of Portugal.

According to historian Charles Oman, it is probable that Napoleon never had any intention of carrying out the treaty's provisions. Aside from his desire to occupy Portugal, his real purpose may have been to surreptitiously introduce a large French force into Spain in order to facilitate its subsequent takeover.

Background​

[edit]
After his attempt to invade Great Britain in 1806 failed,<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Fontainebleau_(October_1807)#cite_note-5"><span>[</span>5<span>]</span></a> Napoleon decreed a Continental Blockade, which prohibited trade of British products throughout the European continent. Portugal, a traditional ally of England, refused to obey him. In order to invade Portugal, Napoleon required a route for his ground troops through Spain, necessitating a treaty with that country.

Treaty of Fontainebleau (October 1807) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kyriakos]

Posting a text wall from a wiki article as contribution was bad enough, but at least don't leave the wiki format code /facepalm.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Posting a text wall from a wiki article as contribution was bad enough, but at least don't leave the wiki format code /facepalm.

So you don't like a detailed answer to your question? If you don't want responses to your posts, don't post. You asked about a partition of Portugal and my post included in its "giant wall of text" (9 lines and picture) what that partition might have looked like.

 

[Kyriakos]

All you were asked to do is remove trash like "<span>[</span>5<span>]</span></a>". Leaving it like that is just sloppy.