Water instead of Food

hi guys sorry if people have already answered or given similar posts I haven't read all the way through but i thought i would give some ideas. feel free to ignore.

sandtrout: sand trouts roll in the ecology of dune is to trap and remove water to protect the worms, sand trouts are earliest stage worms. they can be caught and 'drunk' in emergencies, this is also a fremen childs game. In game terms sand trout could be a bonus that provides small water, very small, but a big bonus could be gained with an improvement such as 'predatory fish pond' (feel free to think of a better name) but fremen seeded predator fish in their water stores to keep the sand trout from massing and removing the water.

Water: In the poles smugglers and others setup ice collecting sites this is then taken to the main city and sold by water merchants. Water was often imported at huge cost from other worlds, and when Paul became emperor he began forcing other worlds to pay water tributes. You could maybe make Smuggler camp/dens as terrain improvements or bonuses with the attached improvement being a smuggler contract. Providing water/food possibly even production as the smugglers import equipment. Even the Fremen dealt with smugglers usually as a connection to supply the Spacing Guild and CHOAM with off the books spice in exchange for secrecy as to their numbers and networks, obtained by the survey satellites in orbit.

Food: the fremen eat massive amounts of spice 'spice cakes' 'spice tea' etc. in fact spice is even used to make rugs and things, they also talk about rock gardens and plantations buried in rocky crevices and inside certain types of rock formations and caves, places where the sand can't get into and destroy. where they cultivate flowers fruits and vegetables. I do think for the other peoples that a huge amount of stuff is imported the only reason anyone, other than fremen, live on dune is because of the necessity of spice and its vast financial rewards even after the costs of water and food imports.
 
How important is the 'fresh water' mechanic to this mod?

I think its some important.
Though you could remove the ability of drip farms to spread water.

I think its more important to be able to get some water from improvements (+1 water) even without a bonus resource.

I also strongly recommend having 1-2 city buildings that are able to provide some water bonus themselves; eg city windtrap gives +2 water income.

Otherwise, looks fun, eager to playtest.
 
deliverator - wont removing the rice will cause some python errors?

I manually changed all usages to BONUS_AQUIFER.

so in the bonusinfo - i didnt know which terrain boolians you changed - so i based them on those in patch 1.2.3. and left all the bonus tweaks you made.

You definitely need to take all my Civ4BonusInfos.xml changes in. Everything is rebalanced from scratch and it is as important as the mapscript really in setting the landscape for the game. I've changed every bonus apart from spice I think.

Writing a program to allow us to rename all instances of tag would be handy. Then we can clean up the XML.

The fresh water usage I am not too bothered about - it's just a thought I had about allowing you to irrigate +1 water a ring of tiles around a well/windtrap. As Ahriman says we can remove the ability of drip farms to spread water.
 
Somehow in attempting to merge deliverator's changes with mine I have completely mangled my mod directory. I was hoping to do some fun coding today like anchor grass and the three percent threshold. Instead I have to throw away my whole mod area and start over. It's my fault due to some operator error, I'm sure.

After I take some time off to let the pain subside, I will start from scratch with the 1.2 release and 1.2.4 patch. In 1.2.3 I took out the worm and storm units and made them map effects; I need to undo that now that koma has added the ignore danger flag. There will certainly be some complaints about the funny looking lightning and rain storm. But hopefully there will also be some constructive feedback on the water mod.
 
Teachings of Liet (wonder? Sietch Tabr UB?) - some positive water impact

If we really add this Arrakis terraforming victory, Teachings of Liet could be our Apollo Mission.

+ Koma said he would do some water related city screen work

Exactly. I first want to finish early unit balancing. Then it will be time for some screen magic. :)
 
I think I recovered my mod area, but it was pretty painful. I have put a new patch 1.2.5 onto the "patch discussion" thread. Any future discussion about merging and scheduling should go there; let's try to keep design/development/feedback on these threads, and merging/scheduling on that thread.

Deliverator, please do carefully verify the files after keldath's merging. I completely failed at merging, twice, which I did not expect. ("This has never happened to me before ..." :-)) I recommend you back up your mod area, delete it, install 1.2, install 1.2.3, install 1.2.4, and install 1.2.5. Once we get everything verified I hope keldath can issue 1.3.

Back to the point of this thread, I have tried out the water mod very briefly. Is it true that the only way to see the critical groundwater resource is with ctrl-R, with the hover icons for resources? This is different from any other mod, where the resources can be seen on the plain map. Perhaps you could take the oasis bonus and make it in several sizes so that there can be something on the map?

Also, perhaps the merging has gone wrong, or perhaps I am misunderstanding the point of your changes. But, when I work an unimproved verbena tile, it generates water. Is that right? With an improvement it would generate more water, which I guess makes sense.
 
Deliverator, please do carefully verify the files after keldath's merging. I completely failed at merging, twice, which I did not expect. ("This has never happened to me before ..." :-)) I recommend you back up your mod area, delete it, install 1.2, install 1.2.3, install 1.2.4, and install 1.2.5. Once we get everything verified I hope keldath can issue 1.3.

Back to the point of this thread, I have tried out the water mod very briefly. Is it true that the only way to see the critical groundwater resource is with ctrl-R, with the hover icons for resources? This is different from any other mod, where the resources can be seen on the plain map. Perhaps you could take the oasis bonus and make it in several sizes so that there can be something on the map?

I'll review the changes. I need to make sure Civ4BonusInfos.xml is exactly the same as my water patch - otherwise growth is going to be screwed up. I guess I need to apply all the patches incrementally as you say and check.

Yes, I mentioned this point here in the Art thread. I will try and come up with an on map visual representation for Groundwater.

Don't worry once the water is bedded in and tuned - I'll go back and focus on Art. Less merge issues.... ;)

Also, perhaps the merging has gone wrong, or perhaps I am misunderstanding the point of your changes. But, when I work an unimproved verbena tile, it generates water. Is that right? With an improvement it would generate more water, which I guess makes sense.

At the beginning the only tiles to generate water are hills (from the slightly higher air moisture) and the dew plants (from dew that gathers most easily on surfaces raised above the desert/rock). The water output of hills is increased by windtraps and the water output of dew plants is increased by dew collectors. And then of course you can build wells to get the groundwater. That's the logic in my thinking...
 
At the beginning the only tiles to generate water are hills (from the slightly higher air moisture) and the dew plants (from dew that gathers most easily on surfaces raised above the desert/rock). The water output of hills is increased by windtraps and the water output of dew plants is increased by dew collectors. And then of course you can build wells to get the groundwater. That's the logic in my thinking...

OK, that makes sense. You suggested this before, but we need some kind of "user guide" so that people make the connection. I have done this with hints, which should be 1-2 short sentences each. I "hope" everybody knows that the civilopedia has a button to show all the hints. At least the hints get in everybody's face, so it is hard to overlook them. I have also copied the hints into a FAQ post in the welcome thread.

Do you want to write 4-5 hints about how the water system works? Search for "HINT" in xml/text/DuneWarsText.xml and you can see where the text goes; for each hint you also need to add an entry in xml/gameinfo/civ4hints.xml.
 
Yes, I can write hints. No problemo.

I also think the idea someone raised of having a Dune Concepts pedia section that goes into a bit more detail on certain subjects is not a bad one... you could have an entry on Worms and Storms, Spice, Water, etc.
 
I also think the idea someone raised of having a Dune Concepts pedia section that goes into a bit more detail on certain subjects is not a bad one... you could have an entry on Worms and Storms, Spice, Water, etc.

Yes, that was suggested, and my reply was that we can achieve the majority of this effect by filling in the standard civilopedia strategy entries for some key resources, improvements and units. Editing xml/text/DuneWarsText.xml is the best way to do this; second best is to just post text here and I can paste it into the file.
 
One additional challenge to a "reskin" like this is to update the text in the game. Fortunately most places use the icon, so that is already done. In the civilopedia, the resource display spells out the name of the yield so you see the text "+1 Food" followed by the drip icon.

Please add this to the end of xml/text/DuneWarsText.xml:

<TEXT>
<Tag>TXT_KEY_YIELD_FOOD</Tag>
<English>Water</English>
</TEXT>

It is a little hard to find other such text items automatically, but that one is highly visible.
 
I'll do this in 1.2.8 that I am just putting together.
 
Yes, clearly I overcompensated. Still we were afraid of too little growth...

There are plenty of ways to scale it back. I'll have a think what is the best way.

How many turns did you autoplay for?
 
It's hilarious. After 250 turns, on huge/noble, commerce totals range from 252 to 573 with most above 350. I'm going to scale back a few things and include the changes in 1.2.8. Expansion looks so much better now with the worm fear issue fixed.
 
The windtrap improvement and city windtrap use python to add an invisible feature. You can see this feature in terrain/featureinfos, FEATURE_WINDTRAP. All it does is add fresh water. The actual food/commerce bonus is associated with the improvement, terrain/improvementinfos, IMPROVEMENT_WINDTRAP. I don't know how to change the "radius" of the fresh water, but maybe we don't need to do that.

David, do you have the time to add the 1-tile-radius fresh water feature to the Well improvements (Shallow Well, Deep Well, Qanat System) just like the Wind Traps? We can then change Drip Farm to be built on any terrain that has Fresh Water irrespective of its current yield. This would mean that you can get +1 water from most squares on the map - whether this is totally desirable I'm not sure yet, but at least it gives you options.
 
Sure, soon as 1.3 goes up I will give you a locally changed DuneWars.py. I suppose an sdk mod using a new xml flag would be better, but ...
 
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