We need to discuss the euro

[crabapple]

I have always been positive to the euro, but after the events with Greece i am not so sure. Its pretty clear that the euro have made it extremely hard for countries other then Germany to get out of the recession, because they cant use monetary policy suitable for their own country.

Because of this countries are forced into endless austerity, that will in the end make all countries with alot of debt, or without any welfare state to speak of.

What do people think, should the euro be abolished?

 

[Agent327]

No.

As to your line of argument, it's not just Germany that's been getting out of recession, so your conclusion that "Its pretty clear that the euro have made it extremely hard for countries other then Germany to get out of the recession" simply doesn't follow. I suggest you find some other stick to go eurobashing.

 

[crabapple]

My own country Finland is a clear example of how the euro is preventing the economy to get out of the recession, with the main trade partners being Sweden and Russia, neither country being in the euro, this makes the euro a problem for Finland.

Krugman is one economist that thinks the crisis have made worse becouse of the euro:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/magazine/16Europe-t.html

This a a normal conversation, didnt know I was eurobashing

 

[Loppan Torkel]

I think these are child diseases of the Euro. In another decade after you've become further integrated with the German economy this won't be an issue any more.

 

[crabapple]

I think these are child diseases of the Euro. In another decade after you've become further integrated with the German economy this won't be an issue any more.

But the problem with further integration of the eurozone, after this mess, none wants further integration except the eurocrats.

I dont want the budget of my country be decided in brussels, especially when it seems totally undemocratic and they also seems to be incompetent.

 

[FriendlyFire]

I dont want the budget of my country be decided in brussels, especially when it seems totally undemocratic and they also seems to be incompetent.

ECB set ONLY monetary policy
Financial Policy is set by each individual nations.

Unfortunately, certain individual nations had no business in the EZ, Either EZ nations give up Financial control and have ECB actually set Financial Policy or only join the EZ when they can compete with Germany.
There are a tons of problems with the EZ as it is with no easy way to fix things.

Also surstromming, dose it actually taste nice ?

 

[crabapple]

ECB set ONLY monetary policy
Financial Policy is set by each individual nations.

I was talking about what would happen in case of further integration. I know how it is now

 

[CavLancer]

No EU without PU! (political union)

Why did they not unite all of E into a US of E? My guess is Germany didn't want it, but really don't know.

 

[Kyriakos]

I have always been positive to the euro, but after the events with Greece i am not so sure. Its pretty clear that the euro have made it extremely hard for countries other then Germany to get out of the recession, because they cant use monetary policy suitable for their own country.

Because of this countries are forced into endless austerity, that will in the end make all countries with alot of debt, or without any welfare state to speak of.

What do people think, should the euro be abolished?

I think it was abolished, pretty much, a couple of days ago.

The euro currency is by now like a bug which was half-crashed by some shoe, and the remaining half is desperately trying to steer the level part along to some side of the pavement*. It already has obviously died, just not shown time of death on the clock of history yet.

*nice quote by Kafka, who surely was in far better condition than this german-run eu.

(also) Winter (war?) is coming.

 

[Verbose]

Also surstromming, dose it actually taste nice ?

Not if you think of it in terms of "fish", expecting a fishy tatse. Think of it as "rich stinky cheeze", and you should do better.

 

[Borachio]

I think the eurozone is still in its infancy. Imo, it's a nice project - in some ways just reflecting the underlying realities of a common market. It may yet fall flat on its face, though. And only time will tell whether it was unrealistic to tie widely differing economies together under the umbrella of one currency.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I think it was abolished, pretty much, a couple of days ago.

The euro currency is by now like a bug which was half-crashed by some shoe, and the remaining half is desperately trying to steer the level part along to some side of the pavement*. It already has obviously died, just not shown time of death on the clock of history yet.

*nice quote by Kafka, who surely was in far better condition than this german-run eu.

(also) Winter (war?) is coming.

Oh, for ffs...
I'll not defend Merkel and Schäuble in any way, but Greece is not indicative of a general problem with the €, because Greece only got to adopt the € through fraud. Other countries have economic issues, but to the degree that Greece has.
Germany benefits froma weak € because it's a very export driven economy and exports a lot to non-EU countries. Obviously a single currency makes things more difficult for countries that rely mostly on tourism from other EU countries, but the answer is not to abolish the € but to invest more into infrastructure and industry, find a balance between inter-european commerce and foreign markers, and finally throw austerity on the trash heap of history. I don't know much about Finland's economy, but having Russia as one of your main trading partners is already suboptimal given the increasing tensions, sanctions and comparatively small market to begin with.
Nokia is going to make phones again. Maybe that will help .

 

[Wastl]

No EU without PU! (political union)

Why did they not unite all of E into a US of E? My guess is Germany didn't want it, but really don't know.

Your guess would be wrong. Most of the European nations would have been dead-set against such a union, especially a country like France, which prides itself on its independence. Indeed, German politicians are in many cases the people who want more and more integration. It's only thanks to a large enough of people actually using common sense that an even bigger mess of a Union hasn't been created.

An actual Union will - if ever - only come after a very very long process. And the sooner the people who try to push for steps in that direction realise that their actions are pushing the populations away from that idea, the sooner they might actually move in the direction they want to move. Until then, their ideas will just make more and more people angry.

 

[Cutlass]

All the smaller nations should stop using the euro. It has no benefits for them that match the costs. The ECB is just too worthless to put up with.

 

[Kyriakos]

Oh, for ffs...
I'll not defend Merkel and Schäuble in any way, but Greece is not indicative of a general problem with the €, because Greece only got to adopt the € through fraud. Other countries have economic issues, but to the degree that Greece has.
Germany benefits froma weak € because it's a very export driven economy and exports a lot to non-EU countries. Obviously a single currency makes things more difficult for countries that rely mostly on tourism from other EU countries, but the answer is not to abolish the € but to invest more into infrastructure and industry, find a balance between inter-european commerce and foreign markers, and finally throw austerity on the trash heap of history. I don't know much about Finland's economy, but having Russia as one of your main trading partners is already suboptimal given the increasing tensions, sanctions and comparatively small market to begin with.
Nokia is going to make phones again. Maybe that will help .

Well yes, i did not mean to claim that our 250 billion euro debt (now much larger, in fact by some 100 billion, while the gdp fell 25% as a result of the help we got) is not a greater issue than Germany's cool 2 trillion debt. Nor that for some funny reason no law ever is activated if it goes against Germany and its own economy.

So in light of the above i agree with your serious point.

 

[Windsor]

ECB set ONLY monetary policy
Financial Policy is set by each individual nations.

Unfortunately, certain individual nations had no business in the EZ, Either EZ nations give up Financial control and have ECB actually set Financial Policy or only join the EZ when they can compete with Germany.
There are a tons of problems with the EZ as it is with no easy way to fix things.

If you're a small country your economy is never going to rival Germany and Frances economies in size. Even if you're a small country with a solid economy your needs is not always going to match what Germany and France needs.

I could take my own country, Norway, as an example. If we go back a few years (like 2012) we had higher growth than the eurozone and kept a higher interest rate. With the euro we would be locked into whatever suits France and Germany best simply because 140 million people is a lot more than 5 million.

So not only do you need a solid economy, it needs to be in sync with Germany and France.

Not having to worry about exchange rate or cost of currency conversion is very nice, but the loss of autonomy is a huge drawback.

 

[Windsor]

I don't know much about Finland's economy, but having Russia as one of your main trading partners is already suboptimal given the increasing tensions, sanctions and comparatively small market to begin with.
Nokia is going to make phones again. Maybe that will help .

Not trading with Russia is simply not an option for Finland. Sure, it might not be optimal. Finland would of course like Russia to be more friendly towards western countries, but small countries can usually find pragmatic solutions. That's how small countries operate.

Forced into a big block Finland gets less room to position itself and adopt policies that favors its own population.

 

[El_Machinae]

Limiting barriers to trade is generally wealth-building. The Euro is good for that. What's needed is some mechanism of transfer payments.

Not straight welfare. People hate that. But some type of policy that buys goods and services from countries that are currently under performing. The U.S. does this with military spending and Employment Insurance.

 

[Cutlass]

Limiting barriers to trade is generally wealth-building. The Euro is good for that. What's needed is some mechanism of transfer payments.

Not straight welfare. People hate that. But some type of policy that buys goods and services from countries that are currently under performing. The U.S. does this with military spending and Employment Insurance.

The US does vastly more of it with Social Security, Medicare, joint programs in every area of government, and straight out welfare. As in by at least a 4-1 margin. And that is the difference between the way the US works and the way the Eurozone works. If you want the euro to work as a currency, the Eurozone as a whole has to take the primary responsibility for paying for welfare/healthcare in all the member states. Nothing short of that can work.

 

[El_Machinae]

I'm not 100% sure Medicare is a transfer payment system. Maybe on the fringes, as rural towns die. But not between metro centres so much