Well, there you go - The Great Socialist Paradise

[insurgent]

I've heard many people say that Cuba was an example of a working socialist country. Even people in here have viciously defended Castro's regime.
Well, not that it's anything new, but here's another example of communist dictatorships cracking down on opponents, and this time it's the wonderboy of modern Socialism, Castro. This has been seen before, and oppression is a part of daily life in Cuba, but the reason this is interesting is the way it was masked or 'buried' - as the 'spin doctors' call it - in the news about Iraq.

From Amnesty International
Cuba: Take action against dramatic deterioration in human rights

Cuban jailed dissidents' families demonstrate outside the Santa Rita Church on 11 May 2003, in Havana, Cuba.
© Associated Press


Further information
Take action against dramatic deterioration in human rights!


Prisoners of conscience

Beginning on 18 March 2003 the Cuban authorities carried out an unprecedented crackdown on the dissident movement. 75 dissidents were detained, subjected to hasty and unfair trials, and, just weeks after being taken into custody, were given harsh prison terms of up to 28 years.

Amnesty International believes that they are prisoners of conscience, detained for the non-violent and legitimate exercise of their rights to freedom of expression, assembly and association. They include journalists, owners of private libraries and pro-democracy members of unofficial opposition parties. According to reports, security agents searched their homes, confiscating computers, fax machines, typewriters, books and papers.

Death Penalty

Lorenzo Enrique Copello Castillo, Bárbaro Leodán Sevilla García and Jorge Luis Martínez Isaac were executed by firing squad on 11 April 2003. They had been among a group that hijacked a Cuban ferry with several dozen passengers on board and tried to force it to take them to the USA. In spite of the matter being resolved without violence, they were summarily tried and executed less than a week after their trial began.

Amnesty International was deeply concerned by the summary nature of the trial and appeals process to which the men were subjected, and by the resumption of executions after three years of a de facto moratorium. It calls on the Cuban Government to commit itself publicly to a resumed moratorium, to commute all existing death sentences and to abolish the death penalty from Cuba's legal system.

And this is the country praised by Kofi Annan as the socialist paradise, this is the dictator fraternising and friendly as he is with Swedish PM Göran 'The Teddy Bear' Persson, Brazilian president 'Lula', and countless other believers.
Well, there you go.

 

[stalin006]

dont tell me u believed the people who told u that!!
OFCOURSE CUBA SUCKS <GOVT.> EVERYONE KNOWS THAT

 

[Cimbri]

Here is a Cuban newspaper article (in English) on the subject, from the links Mr. Greadius was kind enough to provide (In Sir Richard III’s Read the World – thread).

Cimbri

 

[funxus]

Swedish PM Göran 'The Teddy Bear' Persson

I've never heard 'The Teddy Bear' before, but I've heard 'Cosy Göran".

 

[bigfatron]

Originally posted by insurgent
I've heard many people say that Cuba was an example of a working socialist country. Even people in here have viciously defended Castro's regime.
Well, not that it's anything new, but here's another example of communist dictatorships cracking down on opponents, and this time it's the wonderboy of modern Socialism, Castro. This has been seen before, and oppression is a part of daily life in Cuba, but the reason this is interesting is the way it was masked or 'buried' - as the 'spin doctors' call it - in the news about Iraq.

And this is the country praised by Kofi Annan as the socialist paradise, this is the dictator fraternising and friendly as he is with Swedish PM Göran 'The Teddy Bear' Persson, Brazilian president 'Lula', and countless other believers.
Well, there you go.

I've got no problem agreeing that Cuba is a socialist dictatorship and an unpleasant regime. However, can you answer me two questions:

- What is the difference between this unpleasant regime and equally unpleasant regimes that the US administration actively supports, e.g. Saudi Arabia?

- In your opinion, what gives your country the right to interfere in the sovereign affairs of this country?

Once I get credible answers to these questions then I will lay off those US citizens that indulge in Cuba-bashing....

 

[phoenix_night]

Socialist and Communist aren't the same thing.

 

[scotland_no1]

i agree with pheonix knight a bit, but they are connected, although cuba is a good example of a communist country, i still beleive that there has not been any proper communist or socialist country EVER. most of them do have problems and are despots even though this is the opposite of what communism and socialism are about.

i beleive that one day there wil be a countrywhich is a democratically elected socialist government, and a country that is in the developed world, then people would be able to see that it does work, unlike those despotic regimes.

 

[Double Barrel]

Invade Cuba!

Invade Saudi Arabia!

Nuke 'em all!!

heh-heh-heh (j/k)

Good questions, bigfatron. I'm not sure *cough*oil*cough* what the answer would be *cough*oil*cough* to your first question, but the second question seems to be answered through high ideology and big guns.

Actually, I've never understood the position that the U.S. government had about a war...errr..."police action" in Vietnam and doing nothing about a communist country 90 miles off of our coast. These things just never made any sense, so I doubt you'll be able to find a logical answer to your questions. Good luck, though!

 

[phoenix_night]

As for whether we have seen Communism in action. I think we have. It might not be to the same degree as first intended, it may not have all the intended features but it's still Communism.

And we have seen Socialism. Socialism is all around, in properous countries. Obviously to greatly differing degrees but it's still Socialism. Even the Labour Party is Socialist, or at least they used to be.

 

[allan2]

Originally posted by bigfatron


I've got no problem agreeing that Cuba is a socialist dictatorship and an unpleasant regime. However, can you answer me two questions:

- What is the difference between this unpleasant regime and equally unpleasant regimes that the US administration actively supports, e.g. Saudi Arabia?

- In your opinion, what gives your country the right to interfere in the sovereign affairs of this country?

Once I get credible answers to these questions then I will lay off those US citizens that indulge in Cuba-bashing....

Hold it, I think Insurgent was offering criticism, NOT saying anything about what US foreign policy should be. Is this the issue here? Is Insurgent even from the US (maybe he is--honestly, I don't know)?

I KNOW he didn't say anything about "interfering in the sovereign affairs" of Cuba. Criticism, even outright scorn, isn't the same thing as that, you know.

People "reading too much into things", just like I talked about in the Confederate Flag post--see how it can turn around and bite ya in the ass?

***

Ah, to the topic itself: I think the perception of Cuba being the "kinder, gentler" socialism/communism may have to do with Castro's relative tolerance of religion, the lack of HUGE purges (i.e. not like the millions under Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot), and, well, he just seems to be romanticized more (Batista certainly was in need of overthrow).

However, all those defectors swimming through notoriously shark-infested waters in the Straits of Florida, tend to make you wonder, don't they?

 

[Greadius]

Unfortunately, www.amnesty.org STILL puts articles about Iraq and Israeli occupied territories above Cuban criticisms on its homepage. I can't remember the last time I've been to that site and not seen something the U.S. or Israel did in the top spot.

Originally posted by Cimbri
Here is a Cuban newspaper article (in English) on the subject, from the links Mr. Greadius was kind enough to provide

Don't blame me. The department of Homeland Security might be listening.
But I commend you for actually reading what the other side has to say

Originally posted by bigfatron
What is the difference between this unpleasant regime and equally unpleasant regimes that the US administration actively supports, e.g. Saudi Arabia?

Inconsistancies in US policy are no excuse for Cuba's conduct. Saudi Arabia plays by our rules. They're humble dictators in the international arena hoping not to draw too much attention to themselves.

Plus they remain the only true, old fashioned dictatorship in the Western hemisphere, as compared to say, Saudi Arabia, which can point to all of its neighbors faults.

Originally posted by bigfatron
In your opinion, what gives your country the right to interfere in the sovereign affairs of this country?

Inconsistancies in US policy are no excuse for Cuba's conduct. Right to interfere? What gives us the right to do anything? The influx of Cuban refugees, both in terms of support and enforcement of our sovereignity and borders, costs us millions of dollars a year and Cuba seems to have no interest in curbing the behavior which causes this problem.

Originally posted by bigfatron
Once I get credible answers to these questions then I will lay off those US citizens that indulge in Cuba-bashing....

I am an equal-opportunity dictatorship basher. I still feel closer to the Cuban situation than any other active dictatorship, though.

Originally posted by scotland_no1
i agree with pheonix knight a bit, but they are connected, although cuba is a good example of a communist country, i still beleive that there has not been any proper communist or socialist country EVER.

There has never been a proper capitalist country either

Guess we gotta keep trying until we get it right

 

[scotland_no1]

yeah probably, but i bet che guevera is turning over in his grave now about this news, the country he sought to make great is killing its own people.

 

[Adebisi]

Originally posted by scotland_no1
although cuba is a good example of a communist country

Originally posted by scotland_no1
yeah probably, but i bet che guevera is turning over in his grave now about this news, the country he sought to make great is killing its own people.

You cannot in any way defend Cuba for it's welfare system. That would be like defending Nazi Geramany for it's welfare system and long vacations for workers.

Moderator Action: And this equates them to the Nazi's how? Don't make absurd claims like this. It makes me think you are trying to start a fight. Eyrei
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Over the years the Cuban regime has killed more than 15000 people and 20% of the population has fled.


Before the Communist revolution Cuba was one of the wealthiest nations in Latin America, now it is among the poorest. Cuba used to have it's sugar to export, but after the revolution they became reliant on Soviet support and the economy crumbled along with the Soviet Union. Batistas corrupt rule was hated by the Cubans, and the revolution was supported by a broad opposition, consisting of liberals, social democrats and christian democrats. Castro killed that revolution pretty soon though by imprisoning his political opponents and even creating his own little Gulag in the Carribean. No great nation will ever be founded like that.

 

[Adebisi]

To clarify then Eyrei, I don't equate Cuba with Nazi Germany, but playing devils advocate and defending Cuba for it's welfare system is IMO no different than defending Nazi Germany for it's welfare system. Something we would probably all agree was wrong. No trolling, really.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Adebisi
To clarify then Eyrei, I don't equate Cuba with Nazi Germany, but playing devils advocate and defending Cuba for it's welfare system is IMO no different than defending Nazi Germany for it's welfare system. Something we would probably all agree was wrong. No trolling, really.

I still don't see any way to equate the two. The crimes of the Castro regime are so few and less 'evil' compared to those committed by Nazi Germany. I understand what you are saying, but why not use an example such as Chinese treatment of political prisoners. References to Nazi Germany have little to no place in this discussion.

 

[Adebisi]

Yes, but I what I wanted to point out was that it is absurb to defend a country for its social system when it murders and imprisons its political opponents. A small nazi comparsion might make some people realise that.

 

[scotland_no1]

when in this thread did i defend cuba?
if you can point out where i defended cuba than i will give you a million pounds/euros/dollars. in one of your quotes you only took a tiny part of that sentence, if you read the rest then you will see that i am not defending cuba, i am making a claim about the country, how about in future you read the rest of the sentence rather than what you want to read?!?!?!

i stated that cuba was a good example, but i am saying "good" not great or excellent, i am not defending cuba nor am i accepting their human rights records. I was merely talking about the country's socialist factors such as their health service and education service, not their humanitarian crimes, do you honestly think i would say a country was a good example of communism if i was talking about its human rights records?

and next time you reply to something (just as eyrie said) dont make absurd claims.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by scotland_no1
when in this thread did i defend cuba?
if you can point out where i defended cuba than i will give you a million pounds/euros/dollars. in one of your quotes you only took a tiny part of that sentence, if you read the rest then you will see that i am not defending cuba, i am making a claim about the country, how about in future you read the rest of the sentence rather than what you want to read?!?!?!

i stated that cuba was a good example, but i am saying "good" not great or excellent, i am not defending cuba nor am i accepting their human rights records. I was merely talking about the country's socialist factors such as their health service and education service, not their humanitarian crimes, do you honestly think i would say a country was a good example of communism if i was talking about its human rights records?

and next time you reply to something (just as eyrie said) dont make absurd claims.

And this is exactly why we shouldn't bring the Nazi's in where they don't belong. Of course, we also have to learn not let it get to us when it does happen, as well.

 

[insurgent]

Okay, I was away for a while.

Now to clarifying some things:

@bigfatron:
1. I'm as Danish as you can possibly be.
2. I would never miss an opportunity to criticise the Saudi Arabian regime (bigfatron suggested I would defend Saudi Arabia, which I would not).
3. The United States of America has a mandate of the people, elected through the American population. The Cuban regime is oppressive, was never elected in fair democratic elections, and doesn't miss any opportunity to interfere with the affairs of other nations (ie. a long history of inciting Communist insurgencies in other countries). But no, it doesn't give the US a right to interfere. It gives the US a right to defend itself, a right to appeal to the international community, which in turn does have a right to interfere.

@Scotland:
Yes, 65 million people all over the world have been killed. Heck, let's just try again - just maybe some day communist regimes will stop slaughtering their own populations. I can see the logic in that.

@Double Barrel:
So, in other words, in your eyes all politics are about oil and capital interests? I sure as hell wouldn't like to have you as my president.

@allan:
Thank you - my thoughts exactly.

 

[scotland_no1]

Originally posted by eyrei


And this is exactly why we shouldn't bring the Nazi's in where they don't belong. Of course, we also have to learn not let it get to us when it does happen, as well.

yes :0 it just makes me angry u see