What are your thoughts on BitCoin?

[Crezth]

I was quite obviously mocking Zelig.

 

[Symphony D.]

It's is a good question, what do we expect to happen to bitcoin supply as processing power increases?

Here's probably the best summary I've heard:

The bitcoins keep being added until 2140 is a total sham too. They are being added, but some are being lost occasionally too, and eventually those losses will outweigh things. Right now, 25 new bitcoins every 10 minutes surely outweighs the losses (which are very difficult to track), but every 4 years it halves, and in this year, bitcoin has had the processing power expand exponentially, causing it to blow through about 20 months worth of blocks. Ignoring that completely because it makes the every 4 years thing harder:

2016 it drops to 12.5 bitcoins every 10 minutes and 75% of all bitcoins there ever can be will have been created
2020 it drops to 6.25 bitcoins every 10 minutes and 87.25% of all bitcoins there ever can be will have been created
2024 it drops to 3.125 bitcoins every 10 minutes and 93.75% of all bitcoins there ever can be will have been created
2028 it drops to 1.5625 bitcoins every 10 minutes and 96.875% of all bitcoins there ever can be will have been created
2032 it drops to 0.78125 bitcoins every 10 minutes and 98.4375% of all bitcoins there ever can be will have been created
2036 it drops to 0.390625 bitcoins every 10 minutes and 99.21875% of all bitcoins there ever can be will have been created

The algorithm doesn't account for lost coins, it doesn't account for new internet libertarians entering, etc. Some time in those 22 years bitcoin is going to become hyperdeflationary and will implode.

There will only ever be 21 million BitCoins, around half of them have already been made, and a significant fraction of those have never been used or have been lost or destroyed. This is part and parcel of why profitable mining is on the verge of becoming totally impossible.

 

[Zelig]

It's is a good question, what do we expect to happen to bitcoin supply as processing power increases?

Hard cap of several tens of millions bitcoins, generating them gets more difficult the fewer there are remaining, but eventually there won't be any more to generate.

I find that for the ease of argument it's easy to simply assume the supply is fixed since more than half have already been produced anyway.

That funny, because I can't find a car dealership or grocery store around here that actually accepts them.

My claim was that there was at least one car purchased with bitcoins. Your response is relevant how?

I was quite obviously mocking Zelig.

It would probably make more sense if I called things straw men that weren't.

If I replied to your post with "nyah Strawman." that would be mocking, but I wouldn't do that.

 

[timtofly]

Any currency holding is an investment.

A pretty poor one at that - over the past couple decades USD cash would give you a 0% nominal return vs. say, the S&P 500 with dividends reinvested which would give you a 450%+ return.

An investment in what? Holding money seems to be the surefire way of not making any thing. Now if you hold someone else's money and charge them for it, but how can you hold your own money as an investment? Currency is the means of the movement of money, but it does not grow on it's own.

 

[Crezth]

My claim was that there was at least one car purchased with bitcoins. Your response is relevant how?

That's disingenuous. You said "buy stuff like cars," which any reasonable person would infer that they can be used for a variety of commercial exchanges - not just a single car purchase.

Archbob quite correctly pointed out that, in practicality, this function is quite limited.

 

[Zelig]

An investment in what? Holding money seems to be the surefire way of not making any thing. Now if you hold someone else's money and charge them for it, but how can you hold your own money as an investment? Currency is the means of the movement of money, but it does not grow on it's own.

An investment in cash. (Using the term to apply to digital USD as well.) I don't really understand the question, the answer is self-evidence.

Cash can gain or lose in value.

That's disingenuous. You said "buy stuff like cars," which any reasonable person would infer that they can be used for a variety of commercial exchanges - not just a single car purchase.

Archbob quite correctly pointed out that, in practicality, this function is quite limited.

I posted a list of stuff you can buy in addition to cars: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade

Saying "I can't buy blablabla widget" that isn't on the list isn't really relevant at all. There's loads of stuff I can't buy with my bars of gold (almost anything in the world).

 

[Archbob]

See, most everyday shopping is done at stores near someone's home or online at a major retailer like Amazon. If these places don't accept bitcoins than its use is extremely limited.

 

[Zelig]

See, most everyday shopping is done at stores near someone's home or online at a major retailer like Amazon. If these places don't accept bitcoins than its use is extremely limited.

I can't use Euros for anything around my home.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

I was on vacation when I witnessed Bitcoin rose from $400 USD to $800 USD. I was tempted to buy some at that time but what killed the deal for me was:
1. There are no reliable modes of transactions and banks don't offer services for them. Existing transaction systems are also pretty expensive or require too much information on bank accounts.
2. There are inherent problems with the way Bitcoin works. Worldwide use by general public cannot be easily handled and a DDoS will paralyze the entire system.
3. It is, in the end, not much different to playing with a penny stock.

 

[Archbob]

I can't use Euros for anything around my home.

You can use Euros where they are the primary currency, which is most of Europe. You can always use a country's currency in that country. However, there isn't any country where you can conviently buy cars, houses, groceries, etc with bitCoin. Its not good for use anywhere. In other words, no matter where you are, Bitcoins are pretty useless.

 

[bhsup]

Well, you could print out that paper receipt or whatever it's called and use it for toilet paper. That works pretty much anywhere.

 

[Dachs]

Well, you could print out that paper receipt or whatever it's called and use it for toilet paper. That works pretty much anywhere.

still gotta buy the printer paper with real money

 

[Zelig]

You can use Euros where they are the primary currency, which is most of Europe. You can always use a country's currency in that country. However, there isn't any country where you can conviently buy cars, houses, groceries, etc with bitCoin. Its not good for use anywhere. In other words, no matter where you are, Bitcoins are pretty useless.

I'll just repost myself since you seem to have missed the relevant post:

1. For nearly any given individual, bitcoins are going to have more utility than almost any other currency on the planet.
2. On aggregate, more people will find bitcoins useful than almost any other currency on the planet.
3. Most of the arguments leveled against bitcoins are applicable to almost any other currency on the planet.

 

[Archbob]

1. For nearly any given individual, bitcoins are going to have more utility than almost any other currency on the planet.
2. On aggregate, more people will find bitcoins useful than almost any other currency on the planet.
3. Most of the arguments leveled against bitcoins are applicable to almost any other currency on the planet.

#1 and #2 just move Bitcoin from "completely useless" to "almost useless". People who live in a certain area are going to have their local currency. Any other currency is not that convenient to use. However, Bitcoin is not the local currency anywhere which makes them pretty much useless everywhere. No one, anywhere in the world, is going to have an easy time buying everyday things with Bitcoin. Most currencies are good to use in some country where Bitcoins are not good to use in any coountry.

 

[Zelig]

#1 and #2 just move Bitcoin from "completely useless" to "almost useless". People who live in a certain area are going to have their local currency. Any other currency is not that convenient to use. However, Bitcoin is not the local currency anywhere which makes them pretty much useless everywhere. No one, anywhere in the world, is going to have an easy time buying everyday things with Bitcoin. Most currencies are good to use in some country where Bitcoins are not good to use in any coountry.

It's pretty easy to buy stuff with bitcoins from anywhere in the world.

 

[Archbob]

It's pretty easy to buy stuff with bitcoins from anywhere in the world.

Not groceries or everyday objects that you might need on a regular basis. Major online retailers and local shops don't accept bitcoins. Most people don't need contrabrand or SEO services.

 

[Tahuti]

Actually, a Dutch fast-food delivery service accepts BitCoins:

http://www.thuisbezorgd.nl/

 

[Crezth]

It's pretty easy to buy stuff with bitcoins from anywhere in the world.

No it's not. You need patience and an internet connection. You need to download 10 GB just to get started and in order to use them when you're out and about, you need a smart phone. Transactions take roughly 5 minutes to process on top of that. And there's no insurance.

If that's "easy" then what difficulty setting is credit cards? Chimpanzee?

 

[Symphony D.]

Don't forget that you need to watch an exchange 24/7/52 to time your transactions to when your highly volatile libertarian faith stock commodity "currency" is at peak value so that you're not buying or selling at a huge loss.

BitCoin: where every exchange involves day-trading!

 

[Zelig]

Not groceries or everyday objects that you might need on a regular basis. Major online retailers and local shops don't accept bitcoins. Most people don't need contrabrand or SEO services.

Sure, you can get groceries: http://www.thuisbezorgd.nl/

No it's not. You need patience and an internet connection. You need to download 10 GB just to get started and in order to use them when you're out and about, you need a smart phone. Transactions take roughly 5 minutes to process on top of that. And there's no insurance.

Sounds easier than most currencies.

Don't forget that you need to watch an exchange 24/7/52 to time your transactions to when your highly volatile libertarian faith stock commodity "currency" is at peak value so that you're not buying or selling at a huge loss.

BitCoin: where every exchange involves day-trading!

Or you could just not do that, and be just fine on average.