What civ would you want in as the dark horse

[AbsintheRed]

I do think Vietnam's chances are higher than I initially expected, if the Sofia CS theory is anything to go by - given that Belgrade is still in, the only other plausible CS --> civilizations would be Budapest/Hungary and Hanoi/Vietnam. I think Hungary would be a great addition, but given its somewhat overlap with Austria and Poland, I'm not sure whether it'd be in. Vietnam, though, would work well with BNW's new themes, it has a relatively easy choice for a female leader (for those who have some knowledge of Vietnamese history), and is relatively unique in Southeast Asia for being the only Chinese-influenced civ there (so it'd contrast with the already-in Siam and the other possible SE Asian civs)

Actually Hungary and Austria don't overlap that much
They only have to move the Hussar UU to Hungary (to it's proper place) and give a new UU to Austria
Hussars look strange with Austria anyway, they were never really a horse civ

Also, as it was brought up, Phoenicia also has a chance based on the military city state theory
Actually, I would love to see all 3 of them in Civ V, but there is no real chance for more then one in BNW
I can't really tell which one of these 3 civs have more chance, even if Vietnam leads it's not by much

 

[AbsintheRed]

Vietnam. Not necessarily because I'm Vietnamese.

But, well, there's a good choice for a female leader, the Trung Sisters, who would actually deserve the spot rather than, say, Wu Zeitian - the Trung sisters are one of the most revered national heroes of Vietnam.

I do think Vietnam's chances are higher than I initially expected, if the Sofia CS theory is anything to go by - given that Belgrade is still in, the only other plausible CS --> civilizations would be Budapest/Hungary and Hanoi/Vietnam. I think Hungary would be a great addition, but given its somewhat overlap with Austria and Poland, I'm not sure whether it'd be in. Vietnam, though, would work well with BNW's new themes, it has a relatively easy choice for a female leader (for those who have some knowledge of Vietnamese history), and is relatively unique in Southeast Asia for being the only Chinese-influenced civ there (so it'd contrast with the already-in Siam and the other possible SE Asian civs)

Actually Hungary and Austria don't overlap that much
They only have to move the Hussar UU to Hungary (to it's proper place) and give a new UU to Austria
Hussars look strange with Austria anyway, they were never really a horse civ

Also, as it was brought up, Phoenicia also has a chance based on the military city state theory
Actually, I would love to see all 3 of them in Civ V, but there is no real chance for more then one in BNW
I can't really tell which one of these 3 civs have more chance, even if Vietnam leads it's not by much

EDIT: sry, douple post...

 

[cybrxkhan]

Actually Hungary and Austria don't overlap that much
They only have to move the Hussar UU to Hungary (to it's proper place) and give a new UU to Austria
Hussars look strange with Austria anyway, they were never really a horse civ

Also, as it was brought up, Phoenicia also has a chance based on the military city state theory
Actually, I would love to see all 3 of them in Civ V, but there is no real chance for more then one
I can't really tell which one of these 3 civs have more chance, even if Vietnam leads it's not by much

To my knowledge moving a unit from one civ to another has never been done in any version of civ, so I think it's unlikely. The geographical overlap (Austria-Hungary and all) is another factor against Hungary. The last thing would be sort of the flavor factor - whether Hungary is perceived to be distinct enough from Austria and Poland (although this is also something that works against Vietnam, too, as to whether Vietnam is perceived as distinct enough from China and Siam - though I think Vietnam's got it a little better than Hungary in this regards).

Still indeed having all three would be great. To be honest I think Phoenicia's chances are moot, given that their cities just work perfectly for city-states and the fact that Carthage is in. So now it's really just down to Hungary and Vietnam, and indeed I suspect that Vietnam leads for now (though indeed given that this is all wild speculation it's not by much).

 

[LukaVranjanac]

I am against Yugoslavia, I mean that is not even nation, and Tito was a communist dictator, so why would Firaxis put communist or nazi leaders. If they wanted they, would put Mao for China, Stalin for USSR\Russia etc...So you can see them only in Civ4, not Civ5. Serbia sounds good enough.

 

[Dragonflow]

No Serbia or Yugoslavia, Belgrade is still a city-state in Civ5.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Yeah, I have no idea how people got to the idea of Yugoslavia would be a worthy addition
I mean, we are talking about civilizations in the game, not about countries
Yugoslavia was a short-living, forged country. Also a very controversial one...
How can anyone promote them is not understandable to me

I mean, the poster above me (LukaVranjanac) is most likely Serbian, and he is absolutely against such thing too
Yugoslavia is not a civilization. Belgium is not a civilization. Countries in the modern sense, but they have nothing to do with the civ franchise
People really should stop pushing such nonsense "civs"

 

[OldmansHQ]

They only have to move the Hussar UU to Hungary (to it's proper place) and give a new UU to Austria

The idea of hussar as light instead of heavy cavalry was reworked in Poland and popularised in Europe by Polish (Battle of Vienna), either way you simply can not disagree that winged Hussars are the most awesome of all . Hungary could have their Black Army, which mostly consisted of horsemen - yes... yes... - Pikemen seriously needs some unique replacements, Landsknechts are many, but only with Germany.

However, since Hussars will be given to Poland, this means Austria should be modified, in comparison Austrian Hussars are wimps who never tasted Redbull. They had Mozart and partially Beethoven, plus their famous coffee houses and Vienna is a beautiful city, meaning they could have some tourism bonuses. And the biggest change of all - they could replace Maria Theresa with Ferdinand I and his dumplings !

Edit: Sorry, I was not really contributing to the debate, I was thinking out loud.

 

[AbsintheRed]

The idea of hussar as light instead of heavy cavalry was reworked in Poland and popularised in Europe by Polish (Battle of Vienna), either way you simply can not disagree that winged Hussars are the most awesome of all . Hungary could have their Black Army, which mostly consisted of horsemen - yes... yes... - Pikemen seriously needs some unique replacements, Landsknechts are many, but only with Germany.

Umm.. Winged Hussars were not light cavalry
At least not in the sense as the Hussars from the previous countries
Hussars originate from the southern parts of Hungary, and from Serbia
And they were popularized in Europe from there, based on the Hungarian Hussars
Also, the Black Army of Matthias Corvinus wasn't a cavalry army, it had relatively few horsemans...
Pls get your facts right :/

However, since Hussars will be given to Poland, this means Austria should be modified, in comparison Austrian Hussars are wimps who never tasted Redbull. They had Mozart and partially Beethoven, plus their famous coffee houses and Vienna is a beautiful city, meaning they could have some tourism bonuses. And the biggest change of all - they could replace Maria Theresa with Ferdinand I and his dumplings !

Once again, the light Hussars of Hungary, which were spread throughout Europe, and the semi-heavy Winged Hussars of Poland are a very different thing
Why would it be a problem to have both ingame? Just because their name is similar?

 

[Dragonflow]

Yeah, I have no idea how people got to the idea of Yugoslavia would be a worthy addition
I mean, we are talking about civilizations in the game, not about countries
Yugoslavia was a short-living, forged country. Also a very controversial one...
How can anyone promote them is not understandable to me

I mean, the poster above me (LukaVranjanac) is most likely Serbian, and he is absolutely against such thing too

Huns didn't last much longer.
The main reasons for Yugoslavia making sense were:

• It was thought Sofia replaces Belgrade
• Fits well with ideology mechanic
• Fits well with tourism mechanic

The reasons were mainly gameplay related.
But talking about this topic is pointless as we know that neither Serbia nor Yugoslavia will be in.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Huns didn't last much longer.

They are still a civilization, and that was the key thought, not the short-living part

The main reasons for Yugoslavia making sense were:

• It was thought Sofia replaces Belgrade
• Fits well with ideology mechanic
• Fits well with tourism mechanic

Yeah, the first 2 points made sense, but I totally disagree with the 3rd
Why would Yugoslavia fit well with tourism? It's the other way around, almost all the other candidates that came up has more connection to tourism...
(not counting ancient civs of course)

The reasons were mainly gameplay related.
But talking about this topic is pointless as we know that neither Serbia nor Yugoslavia will be in.

They won't be in BNW, that we know
But I really hope they don't have any chance in possible later additions either...

 

[Nujabes]

The fact that the Pueblo almost got in makes me think the Inuit actually have a chance. I know they're contentious here but personally I'd love them to be the dark horse civs, even if it's only so someone can finally make use of snow tiles.

 

[Gucumatz]

The fact that the Pueblo almost got in makes me think the Inuit actually have a chance. I know they're contentious here but personally I'd love them to be the dark horse civs, even if it's only so someone can finally make use of snow tiles.

I forgot to mention them earlier, but I agree with your analysis. It shows that the Sioux are no longer their #1 option. Inuit are a possible darkhorse now [Although if they thought finding a Pueblo language was hard...]

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

There's a part of me, a very small part, that thinks they brought up the whole Pueblo Pope thing to set up the Pueblo as a dark horse to be announced close to release. I know that's dumb, and I don't fully believe it myself, but I have that feeling.

 

[Colmar]

I mean, the poster above me (LukaVranjanac) is most likely Serbian, and he is absolutely against such thing too
Yugoslavia is not a civilization. Belgium is not a civilization. Countries in the modern sense, but they have nothing to do with the civ franchise
People really should stop pushing such nonsense "civs"

Well the idea of what 'deserves' to be in is really fluid. Dido and Hiawatha likely never existed, or at least did as much as their legends claim. Polynesia is fabricated. Brazil and (partly) Ethiopia are based on modern nations. What makes Brazil more of a civilization than Belgium?

I am against Yugoslavia, I mean that is not even nation, and Tito was a communist dictator, so why would Firaxis put communist or nazi leaders. If they wanted they, would put Mao for China, Stalin for USSR\Russia etc...So you can see them only in Civ4, not Civ5. Serbia sounds good enough.

Tito's actions pale in comparison to Ahurbanipal's, Atilla the Hun's, or even the Spanish/other colonialists. Tito shouldn't be included because Yugoslavia is not notable enough, and Tito is too recent to be approached in a purely historical manner.

--

I don't want Belgium, Serbia, Hungary, or Yugoslavia in. We have enough Europe. While I'm sure there are people that want Slav representation, it would just be another country squeezed into Europe's group of civs. Furthermore, they don't embody the trade OR tourism aspect of this expansion.

 

[JanghanHong]

I picked Canadia since I never heard of this place.

 

[Dragonflow]

Paradox!

Anyways, that's what I was thinking. Italy is considred a dark horse, yet there are pages of arguments devoted to their inclusion.

Well...they're a dark horse because nobody really expects them to be added into the game, but that didn't stop us from writing several pages on how they fit well into the theme of the Expansion pack.

 

[Swashbuckler.]

Serbia or Yugoslavia

 

[AbsintheRed]

Well the idea of what 'deserves' to be in is really fluid. Dido and Hiawatha likely never existed, or at least did as much as their legends claim. Polynesia is fabricated. Brazil and (partly) Ethiopia are based on modern nations. What makes Brazil more of a civilization than Belgium?

Yeah, it was probably wrong of me to put Belgium to the same category
Still, I don't think the belgian culture is unique enough (between french/flemish and dutch), or Belgium itself is historically significant enough, that they might even be considered to be included as a full civ...

 

[cakes]

italy is still the darkest of horses to me. i selected khmer on my lists of civs i thought would be included but i still really want vietnam instead though, so that's what i voted on this poll. the more i think about it, it seems the more likely they will be included. here's hoping!

 

[JFD]

I was talking about the size. Power they had insane, size of the island is not insane as much...


Sovereignty has nothing to do with it, I think. If that would be the case then half of the civs we have now, would not be included. Every nation at some point lost and / or regained its independence. I think it just has to be either distinctive or have had influence on history.

Not what I meant. I meant that Maria Theresa was literally the Queen of Hungary. I don't think any current leader is the sovereign of another ingame civ. I could be wrong there, but if not then I'm just attesting that Firaxis probably used Austria-Hungary as the implicit basis of the Austria in-game.