What do you think about Dawkins?

What do you think about Richard Dawkins?


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No, it's not. Dawkins doesn't argue theology with "a few high-school-philosophy-class arguments", he maintains that theology and its arguments are irrelevant to the discussion whether God (Gods) exists. Theology is based on a presumption that God (no matter how you call this entity) exists. Ergo, without first proving this, discussing theology is pointless in the kind of debate Dawkins wants to take part in.

You're right that theology is based on a presumption that a god or gods exist, but Dawkins own arguments rest on an acceptance of gods' existence. Not as all-powerful super-natural entities, of course. Rather, to Dawkins, gods are collective delusions experienced by countless humans and human societies. What's more, these god-memes (to use Dawkins' terminology), and their proponents, have wielded enormous power over human life throughout history, for good or ill.

When any of us engage in this kind of discussion about the nature of gods - including the question of whether they exist independently of the minds that perceive them - we enter the realm of theological enquiry. You may dispute this definition, if you wish, but in the end it doesn't really matter what we call it. What matters is that there are arguments about the nature of god(s) which are far more coherent than the ones Dawkins takes aim at, and, unless you are prepared to engage with those stronger arguments, you have no business claiming the battle to be won.

As it happens, I tend to agree with many of Dawkins' conclusions on the nature of gods. The main difference between us is that I believe the arguments from the other side cannot be so easily brushed away. Smashing a few cheap (and, often, long-discredited) 'proofs' of the existence of an all-powerful god is exactly the kind of thing that falls under the heading 'high-school-philosophy-class arguments'. The problem is that Dawkins doesn't really go any further than that - he seems to think that this half-arsed treatment of the subject is sufficient to prove his case.

But if you really want to take on the religionists - and in many cases there is a great need to take them on - you won't get anywhere if you totally refuse to engage with them on their own turf, as it were. Even if that were not the aim, however, it's still a cop-out to just ignore the postions you find it difficult to argue against.

Also, the resort (by either side) to glib analogies which paint those who disagree as blithering idiots is one of the most objectionable practices in debates like this. Not only do they prove nothing, but they also drive the whole discussion onto a personal level, pushing both sides to the extremes, and thus rendering it almost impossible to change anyone's mind about anything. When people criticise the likes of Dawkins for preaching to the converted, that's exactly the kind of thing they're talking about.

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Gah, this is why I try to avoid discussing such things. It starts as a simple 'state your opinion' thing, but I always end up writing an essay. :blush:
 
I in fact do have a quote :)


Link to video.

At 9:00: "I fully accept that science cannot actually explain love. I can;t say love is the uptake of that that or that chemical. But it's entirely believable that although we cannot explain it, we cannot explain the details, nevertheless there is nothing beyond that. But you've done nothing by calling it ineffable and transcending, you're just using words. We're not getting anywhere by doing that. I'm not getting anywhere either, but I'm admitting it"

The whole thing is quite good to watch :)
Then he goes on explaining that charity is nothing but a misfire of Darwinian impulses. He just can't help himself trying to explain human behavior through his Darwinian religion. He believes that everyone else is having delusions yet even according to his own faith he is made out of the exact same stuff by an unintelligent designer. It's as if he is speaking as a god.
 
Then he goes on explain that charity is nothing but a misfire of Darwinian impulses. He just can't help himself trying to explain human behavior through his Darwinian religion. He believes that everyone else is having delusions even according to his own faith he is made out of the exact same stuff by an unintelligent designer. It's as if he is speaking as a god.

Wow you're bitter :lol:. Could you please post a specific time where he's speaking as a god?
 
Yeah. I just played through that part and I didn't hear anything of the sort. He is actually more polite and less jerky than I considered him to be when I read his book.
 
Sorry, no bitterness here.
Really... You know it aint healthy to keep it all inside.

He just can't help himself trying to explain human behavior through his Darwinian religion.

Oh. I'm guessing you do not believe that Evolution happened.

EDIT: I was gonna put something nifty here but then I realized I could just wait 'till Winner logged on.

Carry on.
 
I find a lot of humor with Dawkin's statements and reasoning. Anyone who describes charity as a misfire of Darwinian impulse is not threat to anyone who believe charity is more real than materialism.
 
Then he goes on explaining that charity is nothing but a misfire of Darwinian impulses. He just can't help himself trying to explain human behavior through his Darwinian religion. He believes that everyone else is having delusions yet even according to his own faith he is made out of the exact same stuff by an unintelligent designer. It's as if he is speaking as a god.
You were about to tell me that valid point Colbert made, remember?

edit: Oh yeah, and admit this was wrong:
Dawkins wants to believe that everything can be explain mechanically and hope science would lead him the way.

edit: Poof! And he's gone again. Can't wait for his next tangent.
 
Dawkins & Myers via Winner said:
"do you have to read up on leprechology before disbelieving in leprechauns?" [...] Myers has voiced the position that many of the responses to Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion are what he calls "Courtier's Replies". Replying to critics who felt that Dawkins ignored sophisticated versions of modern theology, Myers compared them to courtiers fawning on the legendary emperor who had no clothes:

The irony isn't lost on me. I'm sure if a theologian made generalizations, peppered them with anecdotes and 'debunked' the theory of evolution he would rightly be castigated for doing so. When the reverse is true, it's merely cutting to the heart of the matter!
 
Then he goes on explaining that charity is nothing but a misfire of Darwinian impulses.
He does not! He is explaining why charity evolved in humans. That does not make charity somehow false or unreal or bad or anything, it's just how it came to being in humans. Selfless charity is a Darwinian misfire; it is also a very noble thing that humans often do. It need not be that the former denies the latter!

He just can't help himself trying to explain human behavior through his Darwinian religion.
OMG! EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGIST SEEKS TO EXPLAIN THE EVOLUTIONARY ASPECT OF HUMAN BEHAVIOR. Evolution shaped a large part of who we are. It isn't somehow "religious" to use science to investigate this.

He believes that everyone else is having delusions yet even according to his own faith he is made out of the exact same stuff by an unintelligent designer. It's as if he is speaking as a god.
I'm not really understanding your objection here. Dawkins believes that religion is a sort of seductive trap (my wording not his) that while false often plays to our traits as humans. I don't see how that's a problem.
 
The irony isn't lost on me. I'm sure if a theologian made generalizations, peppered them with anecdotes and 'debunked' the theory of evolution he would rightly be castigated for doing so. When the reverse is true, it's merely cutting to the heart of the matter!

1) Evolution isn't a theory, it's a fact.
2) Theology is entirely uncomparable to biology. They're about as different as astrology is from astronomy. Biology has piled tons and tons of evidence supporting its theories, while theology ha a big.... nothing. It operates under assumption that some sort of deity exists, and then goes on speculating about this deity - but all of its "products" are based on hypothesis WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN PROVED. Theology has no evidence behind it.

This is why it is perfectly legitimate to say that theology is irrelevant to the central question of the discussion: "can you prove that there is a god/gods?" You can make whatever generalization you want about evolution through natural selection, but when you ask a biologist like Dawkins "can you prove this is what's actually happeneing in nature?", he will prove it to you. He'll give you fossil evidence, he'll give you examples of how this works even now, he'll offer you genetical evidence and all sorts of other stuff - hard, mutually supporting evidence.


Believers often blame atheists for ignoring their precious theology, but they're doing it mostly to evade answering the central question. They know they can't prove that their God exists so they want to create a smoke screen to obscure this fact and draw the opponent into the swamp of theological discussion. If the atheist is so stupid to fall for this, he immediately starts playing according to their rules.

Atheists like Dawkins simply won't do that and that's what's frustrating his believing opponents so much.
 
Evolution isn't a theory, it's a fact.

Evolution is a theory. But that doesn't mean it isn't true.

A theory is something that explains facts. Of course, you might be talking about the "I have a theory" bar version :).

Add on: since we all seem to link to the Atheist Experience nowadays...


Link to video.

Watch 1:40-2:02 :goodjob:

Carry on people.
 
1) Evolution isn't a theory, it's a fact.
2) Theology is entirely uncomparable to biology. They're about as different as astrology is from astronomy. Biology has piled tons and tons of evidence supporting its theories, while theology ha a big.... nothing. It operates under assumption that some sort of deity exists, and then goes on speculating about this deity - but all of its "products" are based on hypothesis WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN PROVED. Theology has no evidence behind it.

This is why it is perfectly legitimate to say that theology is irrelevant to the central question of the discussion: "can you prove that there is a god/gods?" You can make whatever generalization you want about evolution through natural selection, but when you ask a biologist like Dawkins "can you prove this is what's actually happeneing in nature?", he will prove it to you. He'll give you fossil evidence, he'll give you examples of how this works even now, he'll offer you genetical evidence and all sorts of other stuff - hard, mutually supporting evidence.

Believers often blame atheists for ignoring their precious theology, but they're doing it mostly to evade answering the central question. They know they can't prove that their God exists so they want to create a smoke screen to obscure this fact and draw the opponent into the swamp of theological discussion. If the atheist is so stupid to fall for this, he immediately starts playing according to their rules.

Atheists like Dawkins simply won't do that and that's what's frustrating his believing opponents so much.

Did you read what I said before? This 'we don't do theology' bit is far too convenient a dodge. Any time a more sophisticated argument is raised, and you don't have a slick and easy answer for it, you just have to say "that's a theological question", and thus avoid having to give any answer at all.

Many atheist thinkers have engaged religionists over such matters, and more often than not the former have come out on top. So it's not like we're talking about debates where the result is already decided in favour of the religious types. It seems to me that Dawkins, while quite adept at preaching to the more militant part of the atheist choir, either lacks the wits or the guts to take the religionists head-on in such a manner.

Moreover, it's actually quite reasonable to consider what would be the case if a given argument were true. Indeed, this is what happens when we make and test a hypothesis. In this case we might take the competing hypotheses to be (a) that gods are just figments of collective imagination, and (b) that God/gods have some existence independent of the imaginings of them. Both are reasonable notions, each of which can be made to fit with the evidence at hand, and neither admits of any hard proof. To my mind, the former is a far more likely to be correct, but that does not justify dismissing the latter out-of-hand.

Besides, Dawkins has shown himself to be quite prepared to engage with theological arguments when it suits him - that is, when those arguments admit of an easy refutation. For example, he has no issue with confronting the classic 'argument from design', which rests upon a quite specific idea of God as creator, and has always (to my knowledge) fallen under the theology umbrella. That the argument was neutered to the point of being irrelevant some 200 years earlier, and is given short shrift by any half-decent religious thinkers today, doesn't seem to bother Dawkins at all. It's an easy target, so he plays to the crowd by making a big deal about knocking it down.

I should also add that Dawkins' case is not merely that there is no proof of gods' existence, nor even that the evidence fits much better with the non-existence of a god or gods. Rather, his aim is to demonstrate that belief in god(s) is irrational, massively harmful, and thus should be brought to an end.

I could write several essays on the problems with his reasoning through those latter points. But, for the sake of brevity, I'll spare you that for the time being. ;)

Evolution is a theory.

I think we can say quite conclusively that evolution is a fact. There are theories about how and why it occurs, but the evidence that it does occur is overwhelming.
 
Winner said:
2) Theology is entirely uncomparable to biology. They're about as different as astrology is from astronomy. Biology has piled tons and tons of evidence supporting its theories, while theology ha a big.... nothing. It operates under assumption that some sort of deity exists, and then goes on speculating about this deity - but all of its "products" are based on hypothesis WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN PROVED. Theology has no evidence behind it.

You've missed the point completely. If an economist wrote a book castigating Dawkins theories on how charity evolved without bothering to peruse evolutionary biology texts. He would be called out on it. If the reverse happened and Dawkins wrote a text which ignored all observed data that economists had. He would be called out as well. The difference of course would be that since the economist does not adhere to the scientific method (except in passing) he could not prove Dawkins wrong with quite the same degree of finality. Nevertheless Dawkins would not ignore the economist solely because the economists hypothesis COULD NEVER BE PROVED (with some exceptions in Behavioral Economics). He would simply accept (like many of his fellows) that economists labor under that constraint. He wouldn't resort to anecdote, begging the question, generalizations and willful ignorance.
 
Besides, Dawkins has shown himself to be quite prepared to engage with theological arguments when it suits him - that is, when those arguments admit of an easy refutation. For example, he has no issue with confronting the classic 'argument from design', which rests upon a quite specific idea of God as creator, and has always (to my knowledge) fallen under the theology umbrella. That the argument was neutered to the point of being irrelevant some 200 years earlier, and is given short shrift by any half-decent religious thinkers today, doesn't seem to bother Dawkins at all. It's an easy target, so he plays to the crowd by making a big deal about knocking it down.

I should also add that Dawkins' case is not merely that there is no proof of gods' existence, nor even that the evidence fits much better with the non-existence of a god or gods. Rather, his aim is to demonstrate that belief in god(s) is irrational, massively harmful, and thus should be brought to an end.

[snipped to prevent wear of the scrolling wheel]
See Smidlee, it's perfectly possible to criticize Dawkins in a meaningful way without having to resort to attributing positions to him which aren't his. It helps to actually know a thing or two about the subject you're addressing as well.

Good posts Winston.

The one comment I want to make is that the most powerful religious movements do themselves also adhere to those easily refutable theological arguments. Just take a look at the decision to have Creationism taught besides Evolution as if they were equal, in some states in the US. Those are the ones claiming the spotlight. Those are the people who most often have their opinions heard. So there is a good reason to keep attacking those believes, even though they might be intellectually outdated.
 
Ziggy Stardust said:
The one comment I want to make is that the most powerful religious movements do themselves also adhere to those easily refutable theological arguments. Just take a look at the decision to have Creationism taught besides Evolution as if they were equal, in some states in the US. Those are the ones claiming the spotlight. Those are the people who most often have their opinions heard. So there is a good reason to keep attacking those believes, even though they might be intellectually outdated.

I'm not inclined to believe the Evangelical Christianity adheres to for instance Aquinas's proofs -- they adhere to Biblical Literalism which is a completely different creature which operates without need for any attempt at rationality.

Ziggy Stardust said:
Good posts Winston.

I heartily agree!
 
Evolution is a theory. But that doesn't mean it isn't true.

A theory is something that explains facts. Of course, you might be talking about the "I have a theory" bar version :).

Add on: since we all seem to link to the Atheist Experience nowadays...

Eee, you missed the point. Evolution is a fact, "evolution through natural selection" is the theory. In terms of the video you posted, it's like "gravity is a fact and 'theory of gravity' explains how it works".

Did you read what I said before? This 'we don't do theology' bit is far too convenient a dodge. Any time a more sophisticated argument is raised, and you don't have a slick and easy answer for it, you just have to say "that's a theological question", and thus avoid having to give any answer at all.

Oh yes, I did read your response. My answer was included in the response to Masada.

You're talking about sophisticated theological arguments. The problems I see with these arguments is that they're based on the same thing the whole theology is - the existence of God. Until this assertion is proved, it makes no sense to discuss anything else theology has come up with.

Many atheist thinkers have engaged religionists over such matters, and more often than not the former have come out on top. So it's not like we're talking about debates where the result is already decided in favour of the religious types.

Oh yes, many atheists - usually deconverted Christians who have previously studied Christian theology a lot - are able and willing to enter the swamp with the believers and defeat them on their own battleground.

Other atheists, like Dawkins, choose a more scientific approach to the discussion and for their line of argument, theology is virtually irrelevant.

It seems to me that Dawkins, while quite adept at preaching to the more militant part of the atheist choir,

Oh no, stop right there. "Militant atheism" or "fundamentalist atheism" and so forth are just denigrating labels assigned to vocal atheist by believers. Questioning a belief isn't sign of militancy. Criticim of an idea or doctrine isn't militancy. What Dawkins is doing is as far from "militant" as it can possibly get.

I guess he's labeled so because of his willingness to go into open confrontation with believers, openly criticizing their beliefs. But this doesn't make him militant or gods-forbid fundamentalist.

either lacks the wits or the guts to take the religionists head-on in such a manner.

No, he simply doesn't see the need to disprove all of theology, because that would mean he voluntarily accepted the burden of proof. In fact, this burden of proof is on the believers who need to prove their basic assertion of God's existence in a scientifically verifiable way. Until they do that, there is no point in getting dragged into theological discussion.

The "Courtier's reply" analogy explains it pretty well.

Moreover, it's actually quite reasonable to consider what would be the case if a given argument were true. Indeed, this is what happens when we make and test a hypothesis. In this case we might take the competing hypotheses to be (a) that gods are just figments of collective imagination, and (b) that God/gods have some existence independent of the imaginings of them. Both are reasonable notions, each of which can be made to fit with the evidence at hand, and neither admits of any hard proof. To my mind, the former is a far more likely to be correct, but that does not justify dismissing the latter out-of-hand.

This is not the way atheists discuss the matter. Atheists simply refuse the theists' hypothesis and their arguments is simple - theists don't have anything at all that would confirm this hypothesis, ergo it is not rational to believe that this hypothesis is in fact correct.

Some atheists go further and speculate about why people invented God, or why they believe in God, what motivates them, how the idea of God spreads etc. etc. etc. For all this, they need evidence, working theories, models, experiments and so on.

But they need none of this if they simply refuse to believe in the original theistic hypothesis.

Besides, Dawkins has shown himself to be quite prepared to engage with theological arguments when it suits him - that is, when those arguments admit of an easy refutation. For example, he has no issue with confronting the classic 'argument from design', which rests upon a quite specific idea of God as creator, and has always (to my knowledge) fallen under the theology umbrella.

He's doing it in case of the most widespread myths and false notions which, in his opinion, are harmful to the society. For example, he confronted I.D. and similar nonsense because it is trying to pose as science, which Dawkins as an evolutionary biologist finds outrageous (rightly so). He confronts religios education at schools on the basis that it is essentially a form of child abuse and unacceptable indoctrination with irrational ideas which is harmful for children.

I really don't see how this is relevant to theology and its relevance.

That the argument was neutered to the point of being irrelevant some 200 years earlier, and is given short shrift by any half-decent religious thinkers today, doesn't seem to bother Dawkins at all. It's an easy target, so he plays to the crowd by making a big deal about knocking it down.

It's actually not such an easy target, because otherwise there would be no such fuss about it. In the US and some other parts of the word, these absurd notions of creationism are gaining momentum and Dawkins wants to push them back where they belong. And I wholeheartedly support him in that.

I should also add that Dawkins' case is not merely that there is no proof of gods' existence, nor even that the evidence fits much better with the non-existence of a god or gods. Rather, his aim is to demonstrate that belief in god(s) is irrational, massively harmful, and thus should be brought to an end.

Which is only a logical extension of the first conclusion, that faith without evidence is irrational. The debate about how dangerous religion is in practice is merely a follow up. IMO it would be more hypocritical to say "we've established that you are wrong about you beliefs which are irrational, but we won't try to educate you and explain to you why are you irrational beliefs potentially harmful".

Dawkins started this whole discussion precisely because he wanted to stop religion from undermining what he sees as the basis of modern secular society - rationalism, scientific progress and enlightened morality.
 
You've missed the point completely. If an economist wrote a book castigating Dawkins theories on how charity evolved without bothering to peruse evolutionary biology texts. He would be called out on it. If the reverse happened and Dawkins wrote a text which ignored all observed data that economists had. He would be called out as well. The difference of course would be that since the economist does not adhere to the scientific method (except in passing) he could not prove Dawkins wrong with quite the same degree of finality. Nevertheless Dawkins would not ignore the economist solely because the economists hypothesis COULD NEVER BE PROVED (with some exceptions in Behavioral Economics). He would simply accept (like many of his fellows) that economists labor under that constraint. He wouldn't resort to anecdote, begging the question, generalizations and willful ignorance.

No, you missed the point. Theology is not a science, it's not even on the same level as economics which is the most "scientific" of social "sciences". Theology is a pseudo-science on par with astrology. It doesn't produce any practical results and it is based on an unproven assertion. This makes it irrelevant to Dawkins and his line of argument. He is absolutely correct to dismiss it, just as you would dismiss all of leprechology if you were asked about the belief in leprechauns.
 
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