[RD] What does free speech mean?

[Cloud_Strife]

I bring up the issue of pedophilia and pedophilia advocation because i think any normal, sane person would realize and acknowledge that the spread of these ideas are demonstrably harmful to children as well as to society as a whole.

If you accept that, it isn't a leap to say that the same should be applied to bigotry, especially when it can be shown to also materially be harmful to the recipiants of it.

If suppressing the latter is thought policing, why is it not so in the former? The only difference is the topic.

 

[CurtSibling]

It's not a refusal to understand your point CurtSibling, it's merely me acknowledging that your actions are inconsistant with the words you type.

What actions? Walking my dog? Drawing things? Making lunch?

You seem to have turned me into some kind of satanic mass-murderer in your headspace.
Simply put - I am just a person with flaws, like you.

If you truly knew anything about me, you'd know tyranny and hate makes me sick.
Now, enough. Let us just not respond to each other's posts.
I can do it easily enough.

 

[Dekker]

It's a anti social behavior banned anywhere with a basic level of decency.

I wouldn't call fascism nice either but theres laws protecting parts of it even if they have to use dog whistles in certain countries.

Your questions stupid because it's apples and oranges. What's acceptable will vary by society. If you can get to 75% supermajority you can change the first amendment.

I'll give you a counter example. We don't have a constitutional right to free speech. We do have an act of parliment with most of the rights of various people protected.

However it can be revoked by a simple act of parliment. If that happens it can easily be open season on the gays or whatever.

Free speech to me us a necessary evil. It's not perfect but better than the alternative.

So Nazi viewpoints are not antisocial? Decent places can embrace Hitler's worldview? Remember, there's more pedophiles especially by your count, that's a large part of society. Do you think the rest of society looks at Nazis and think, ya they're acceptable just another political viewpoint, or do you think we look at them like pedos? I'm sure any place with basic decency isn't treating Nazis with moral relativism. We went to war to crush the monsters who would perpetuate that pathetic worldview, because it is a worldview of monsters.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

What actions? Walking my dog? Drawing things? Making lunch?

You seem to have turned me into some kind of satanic mass-murderer in your headspace.
Simply put - I am just a person with flaws, like you.

If you truly knew anything about me, you'd know tyranny and hate makes me sick.
Now, enough. Let us just not respond to each other's posts.
I can do it easily enough.

I don't think people who have made missteps are irredeemable, the issue comes when they actively refuse to show any acknowledgement or contrition on the topic.

 

[Zardnaar]

Is the societal curbing of pedophilia and pro-pedophilia rhetoric a form of "thought policing"?

If it is, why do you claim that be acceptable but not so in the case of bigotry when the results of such have been made more than clear, if not how can you hold a double standard by applying it to bigotry?

I want you to answer this question because i find it interesting that on one hand you are willing to dismiss some of my concerns as "thought policing" but on the other hand you are willing to make exceptions/ignore it when it comes to topics that might tangentially involve people who look like you, after all what decent person wants pedophilia to be advocated? No one does, but the same should also be applied to bigotry.

The key difference is there's no definition of what's bigotry or not and bigotry isn't illegal.

Pedophilia there are victims. If a fascist crosses the line and hurts/kills someone they should absolutely be held to account.

Free speech is mostly about political expression. It's not do whatever the hell you like.

I'll use another example. You get freedom if religion but say if your religion involves human sacrifice you don't get to kill people.

Using Islam. They can have four wives. They are not required to have 4 wives so there rights are not restricted in practicing the day to day lives. If they want 4 wives they either have to break the law or go to a country that allows it.

Ergo there's restrictions on freedom if religion.

Freedom of expression is mostly about political views. If you don't agree that's irrelevant it's the way the law is.

Now a Nazi can basically say what they like. But freedom if expression doesn't give then the right to act on it.

Same with Antifa. They can say what they like subject to the same laws that govern the Nazis. If the Nazis say they're going to kill Cloud that's a specific threat and is illegal. If a member of antifa says they're gonna kill a Nazi named Bob that's also a specific threat.

In either situation if either one crosses the line they're still entitled to due process and in some cases it's going to be hard to determine guilt. Secret Nazi 1 kills someone public Nazi 2 gets the blame.

If Nazi 2 gets turn apart by a mob you got the wrong person. Replace the word Nazi with whatever you like to see my point why I don't condone extra judicial justice. Yes I'm well aware the justice system gets it wrong but there's mechanisms there for that as well.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Pedophilia there are victims. If a fascist crosses the line and hurts/kills someone they should absolutely be held to account.

Free speech is mostly about political expression. It's not do whatever the hell you like.

There are demonstrable victims of bigotry, just like pedophilia. Why the disparity?

 

[Zardnaar]

And who likes fascists but fascists? You yourself like to assume there are less than 100,000 fascists in the U.S, white supremacist neo Nazis that advocate final solutions and actively go out and harm minorities, even murder, and these crimes are increasing. Still that's a dar smaller number than likely pedophiles and yet you think their views should not be treated in the same manner? Remember, no pedo is arrested for just being a pedo, they must commit crime. No one is saying Nazis should be arrested for just being hateful pricks. But the US Constitution does not protect Nazis advocating for concentration camps and final solutions, so how and why do you keep defending this idea?

Because there are people on this board who think mib violence us fine and have used nod nod wink wink to advocate murdering people. And a fairly flexible definition of fascist.

 

[Dekker]

The key difference is there's no definition of what's bigotry or not and bigotry isn't illegal.

Pedophilia there are victims. If a fascist crosses the line and hurts/kills someone they should absolutely be held to account.

Free speech is mostly about political expression. It's not do whatever the hell you like.

I'll use another example. You get freedom if religion but say if your religion involves human sacrifice you don't get to kill people.

Using Islam. They can have four wives. They are not required to have 4 wives so there rights are not restricted in practicing the day to day lives. If they want 4 wives they either have to break the law or go to a country that allows it.

Ergo there's restrictions on freedom if religion.

Freedom of expression is mostly about political views. If you don't agree that's irrelevant it's the way the law is.

Now a Nazi can basically say what they like. But freedom if expression doesn't give then the right to act on it.

Same with Antifa. They can say what they like subject to the same laws that govern the Nazis. If the Nazis say they're going to kill Cloud that's a specific threat and is illegal. If a member of antifa says they're gonna kill a Nazi named Bob that's also a specific threat.

In either situation if either one crosses the line they're still entitled to due process and in some cases it's going to be hard to determine guilt. Secret Nazi 1 kills someone public Nazi 2 gets the blame.

If Nazi 2 gets turn apart by a mob you got the wrong person. Replace the word Nazi with whatever you like to see my point why I don't condone extra judicial justice. Yes I'm well aware the justice system gets it wrong but there's mechanisms there for that as well.

There's no victims to Nazi white supremacy? Go look up the growing trend of their murders and killings. Guess what, most pedos don't have victims, so are you ok with the pedos who don't make contact with kids spreading their views and bringing others onboard to their cause? (In the hopes of normalizing their behavior so that their repugnant views spread and spread).

You seem to worry about censorship spreading to extremes, wonder why you don't think white supremacy can.. when it already did and has a massive body count to show for it.

 

[Zardnaar]

So Nazi viewpoints are not antisocial? Decent places can embrace Hitler's worldview? Remember, there's more pedophiles especially by your count, that's a large part of society. Do you think the rest of society looks at Nazis and think, ya they're acceptable just another political viewpoint, or do you think we look at them like pedos? I'm sure any place with basic decency isn't treating Nazis with moral relativism. We went to war to crush the monsters who would perpetuate that pathetic worldview, because it is a worldview of monsters.

We went to war because the Nazis crossed the border with a country the UK was allied with. No one cared that much what the Nazis got up to in their own borders.

US didn't do crap for another 2 years.

 

[Dekker]

Because there are people on this board who think mib violence us fine and have used nod nod wink wink to advocate murdering people. And a fairly flexible definition of fascist.

Suuuuuuure just like your previous post where you bring extra judicial violence up, as if anyone has been talking about that.

 

[Zardnaar]

There are demonstrable victims of bigotry, just like pedophilia. Why the disparity?

Only if they cross the line into violence. Alit if countries have way stricter laws than we do and have way bigger problems due to their culture.

 

[Dekker]

We went to war because the Nazis crossed the border with a country the UK was allied with. No one cared that much what the Nazis got up to in their own borders.

US didn't do crap for another 2 years.

So let me ask again, you think Nazi white supremacy is not an antisocial viewpoint and behavior? Decent places would allow it?.you actually don't think it's bad as pedophilia?

 

[Zardnaar]

There's no victims to Nazi white supremacy? Go look up the growing trend of their murders and killings. Guess what, most pedos don't have victims, so are you ok with the pedos who don't make contact with kids spreading their views and bringing others onboard to their cause? (In the hopes of normalizing their behavior so that their repugnant views spread and spread).

You seem to worry about censorship spreading to extremes, wonder why you don't think white supremacy can.. when it already did and has a massive body count to show for it.

Pedos aren't a political ideology. Freedom of expression doesn't apply to them.

 

[Dekker]

Only if they cross the line into violence. Alit if countries have way stricter laws than we do and have way bigger problems due to their culture.

So let me ask again, we should lift the thought policing on the pedos who don't harm kids and allow them to advocate for those who do? And just focus on the ones who cross the line and harm the kids?

 

[Zardnaar]

Suuuuuuure just like your previous post where you bring extra judicial violence up, as if anyone has been talking about that.

It's related. Several people here have outright said violence us ok as long as it's against people they disapprove of.

They also have a very flexible definition of fascist. Eg the old labels don't apply.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Only if they cross the line into violence. Alit if countries have way stricter laws than we do and have way bigger problems due to their culture.

Your response is fundamentally reactionary and does nothing to prevent future and possible bigotry.

If applied to pedophilia, you'd literally be standing about doing nothing until they actually laid a hand on the child. This is the same status-quo ideology that enabled decades of suffering and abuse, but not only that it relies on people actually being willing to do something.

 

[Dekker]

Pedos aren't a political ideology. Freedom of expression doesn't apply to them.

Glad to know you think Hitler's viewpoint is a political ideology worthy of defense right up with the rest. Slavery is an ideology too, political even that's what the South fought for, so good to know you support its advocacy as well.

 

[Gorbles]

Pedos aren't a political ideology. Freedom of expression doesn't apply to them.

Surely, just like opposition to Neo-Nazis, and the like, this is entirely dependent by country?

I think the whole point here is you keep trying to apply American norms to countries that aren't America. You're not even American yourself, right? People are trying to understand why (normal and natural) opposition to paedophilia is acceptable, but opposition to a violent and destructive ideology is for some reason arguable. What is the line that makes these things arguable vs. not arguable?

Which is why we're going to do nothing but go in circles if we don't agree on a definition for "freedom of speech" as used in this thread (as CurtSibling asked, but didn't follow up on).

 

[Zardnaar]

So let me ask again, we should lift the thought policing on the pedos who don't harm kids and allow them to advocate for those who do? And just focus on the ones who cross the line and harm the kids?

Free speech doesn't apply to them, stupid people take it to literally. It's not do whatever you like. The constitution doesn't cover their rights and in NZ the human rights act doesn't either.

The human rights act dies cover political views. It means you can fire a fascist four being a fascist, if they express those views in the workplace though they can be fired.

Well you could fire them anyway, you might have to pay them out just like if you fired someone for being black, women, liberal etc.

 

[Dekker]

Pedos aren't a political ideology. Freedom of expression doesn't apply to them.

Go tell NAMBLA.

So now that you know that there is a political ideology that supports pedophilia, I hope you stay consistent in your views.