ParkCungHee
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2006
- Messages
- 12,921
Yes, that's why I cited Theologians instead of sheer numbers.I know a good handful of Christians and I don't know any Universalists. Also, the "Truth" isn't meant to be taken as a Democratic affair.
Theodicy is usually considered a seperate matter from Salvation. But since you're concerned with it, how do you square it with God's Omnibenevolence?Because it makes the most sense to me. It accounts for God's sovereignty, omnipotence and omniscience.
Yes, but as I pointed out, this contradicts theodicy, which you can't do without ignoring many key passages in the bible.Of course it's less than a perfect good. It is, in fact, evil, unless we change the definition of Evil to be something so arcane that it's nearly meaningless.
I'm not asking you to softball anything. I'm asking you to step up to the plate here. You seem to think Calvinism is the one true understanding of the bible, and I say it's the work of a Scottish nutjob, followed by an obscure Church, that represented no Christian thought for over a millenia, is totally incompatible with theology, the bible, or reason.Because softballing Christian doctrine ain't my job.
In fact, I'm asking you to defend your entire idea of hell, because I don't see any evidence for it in the bible.
There are 13 references to Hell in the bible.
Spoiler :
Matthew 5:22
Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.
23 If therefore thou art offering thy gift at the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee,
Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.
23 If therefore thou art offering thy gift at the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee,
So a vague reference to a "hell of fire" that we're in danger of. I've seen similar warnings on propane tanks.
Spoiler :
Matthew 5:29
And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell.
And if thy right hand causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into hell.
And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell.
And if thy right hand causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into hell.
This ones problematic for the traditional view, because here we have two reference that the whole body goes to hell. No reference to a soul or intellect there, but to literally your body going to hell. Remember, if this hell is supposed to reference the afterlife, this basically means "if you sin, your body will be cremated".
Spoiler :
Matthew 10:28
And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
If this is a reference to God, it says he is able, but nothing about willing. Note here how now we're discussing the body and soul, so the last passages weren't unconscious omissions.
Spoiler :
And if thine eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire.
Again, a reference to body parts ending up in a fire.
Spoiler :
Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he is become so, ye make him twofold more a son of hell than yourselves.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he is become so, ye make him twofold more a son of hell than yourselves.
Okay, so you can be a Son of Hell, and that means something, but still nothing about going to hell when you die.
Spoiler :
Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
Hell apparently judges you, still nothing about what that entails, who enforces it, and if it's enforced.
Spoiler :
Mark 9:43
And if thy hand cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed, rather than having thy two hands to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire.
And if thy foot cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into life halt, rather than having thy two feet to be cast into hell.
And if thine eye cause thee to stumble, cast it out: it is good for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell;
And if thy hand cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed, rather than having thy two hands to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire.
And if thy foot cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into life halt, rather than having thy two feet to be cast into hell.
And if thine eye cause thee to stumble, cast it out: it is good for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell;
Again, body parts go to hell. Soul? Not so much.
Spoiler :
Luke 12:5
But I will warn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, who after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
But I will warn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, who after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Again, able, but not willing. First reference to hell being something after death, though no references to this actually happening, happening for an eternity, or anything like that.
Spoiler :
James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire: the world of iniquity among our members is the tongue, which defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the wheel of nature, and is set on fire by hell.
And the tongue is a fire: the world of iniquity among our members is the tongue, which defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the wheel of nature, and is set on fire by hell.
So your tongue is alright alight with the fire of Hell. I gotta say, my tongue doesn't feel too bad. Gotta brush it, it's kind a gunky, but I wouldn't classify this as torture.
Spoiler :
2 Peter 2:3-5
American Standard Version (ASV)
3 And in covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose sentence now from of old lingereth not, and their destruction slumbereth not.
4 For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 and spared not the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly;
7 and delivered righteous Lot, sore distressed by the lascivious life of the wicked
8 (for that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their lawless deeds):
9 the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment unto the day of judgment;
American Standard Version (ASV)
3 And in covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose sentence now from of old lingereth not, and their destruction slumbereth not.
4 For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 and spared not the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly;
7 and delivered righteous Lot, sore distressed by the lascivious life of the wicked
8 (for that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their lawless deeds):
9 the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment unto the day of judgment;
So we know Angels are in Hell, or at least a hell because this doesn't seem to be the "Hell of Fire" because it's dark. Now, it doesn't say anything about torture, or anything like that for the angels, just that they're in hell, and it's dark. There's no references to humans going there after the die anymore then there's references to them being underwater after they die, or that you'll turn to ash.
Note also that the Angels do not seem to be there forever, as they're there to "Reserve unto judgement." If Hell is a punishment, then why are they held there until they're being judged, until their punished?
And that is it. That is literally every reference to Hell in the bible. So I want to see how you reconstruct the usual psuedo-pornographic view of hell out of these disjointed references to something, with absolutely no mention of an afterlife.