What does it take for me to get into Heaven?

[GoodGame]

Starting of as an atheist, what are the changes I have to make in my life to make it through the pearly gates?

You have to find a religion and god that you believe in first, and then follow it's edicts on eternal salvation?

Without that, why are you concerned?

 

[Arakhor]

Not if you believe Jesus: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 7:14&version=NIV
Is Jesus a liar now? Since you claim to be "Christian" be careful how you answer that question.

That quote says 'life'. Stop interpreting it to suit your own perspectives and then claiming that you only ever take a literal reading.

Like I said, I'm not trying to get people to follow me, but trying to get people to obey and follow God.What Jesus did by dying on the Cross is the only way to get to Heaven, because He paid the sin debt the we all owe, by His death there.

If you believe in original sin, maybe. I'm neither a Catholic nor a Calivinist and I don't accept such a blatant supernatural control mechanism.

 

[Core Imposter]

Very well then you will have to admit that many things which come to us from religion are satanic...

Right, absolutely right. Many things that come from religion are Godly as well. Any human institution will be subject to human failing and evil as well as every potential good.

How do you get rid off this satanic influence?

Can't and won't. Not until the physical world gives way to spirtual. As long as we have flesh, temptation strives with our better nature.

Its a slow and steady process and to say that one just needs to turn to Jesus once and all will be fine is pretty ridiculous.

I'll make the distinction between the physical world and the spiritual world. Refer to the story of Passover in Exodus:

5Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: 6And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. 7And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
12For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. 13And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Much of the Old Testament is a foreshadowing of the New, a preparation for the coming of the messiah. Its quite powerful. Here we see the foreshadowing of the blood as token, essentially a seal, to protect against judgement. When you are truely saved, God acts, and seals you. It is against the day of judgement and you are changed as well by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but of course you will resemble your pre-sealed self in virtually every way and will be subject to the same temptations of the physical world in which you live. Lying before you is the process of growth in the knowledge and love of the Lord, which is aided by the guidance of the Spirit, to the degree that you seek it.

Note that those protected by the blood in Eygpt were protected from an eternal judgement in the houses "where ye are", which was still in the land of Egypt, passed over but still enslaved in the land and facing the difficulties of the exodus. Likewise once saved against the day of eternal judgement we are still here facing, as you say, a slow and steady process. One we walk uncertainly though confident in our ultimate destination.



There is something like spiritual process/progress which is going on inside good or bad people within all regardless what is their believe. Consciously or not we are all drown back to our source...

Yes, and I pray you heed those goings on, as it is the Spirit, and our time is limited.

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh

 

[AlpsStranger]

I'm asking you to step up to the plate here. You seem to think Calvinism is the one true understanding of the bible, and I say it's the work of a Scottish nutjob, followed by an obscure Church, that represented no Christian thought for over a millenia, is totally incompatible with theology, the bible, or reason.

Look, I'm not even a Christian. My point is simply that virtually every Christian I've met thinks that 90+% of humanity will be eternally, "pornographically" ( good word ) tortured in hell, and that several famous Christian thinkers have expressed the idea that the primary purpose of this is to act as salvation porn for the Elect. You're the first Christian I've ever come across who doesn't, actually. Other people avoid describing it by saying it is far too horrible to be described.

As for Calvinism, it arises naturally from the idea that God controls everything. It's either Calvinism or something awfully like Calvinism if it's anything.

PS: Omnibenevolence, fwiw, is meaningless. Whatever God does is good so his actions aren't restrained in any way by this.

That, in fact, is supralapsarianism. Not even all Calvinists accept that.

Another word game. If God is God then he planned everything by definition. The fall couldn't possibly have been an accident.

As for the rest of them, you still don't know as they may have repented in their last moments.

I still maintain that nobody actually thinks Anne Frank repented at the last moment. Nobody would put their Vegas money on it. Entertaining that thought is a rhetorical dodge to avoid having to say "Yes, my eternally loving God is/will eventually begin tormenting Anne Frank for infinity billion years." I understand that nobody deliberately leads with this fact, but they tend to believe it, don't they?

I think you are slandering God.

I mean no personal offense to you GhostWriter16. I am just expressing my take on the whole affair.

You seem like a decent fellow so don't think I personally dislike you.

 

[Borachio]

Matthew 5 to 7 seems to be it. But, Ziggy, from your previous threads it looks like you know all this as well as anyone.

So, I don't get the point of this thread.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Matthew 5 to 7 seems to be it. But, Ziggy, from your previous threads it looks like you know all this as well as anyone.

So, I don't get the point of this thread.

The point of this thread is to focus on one specific element and see what others think about that element. The point of focussing is that ideas about that element are targeted, instead of yet another thread about what it takes to be a Christian, or to engage Young Earth thinking yet again. resulting in massive useless posts trying to address everything, but achieving nothing.

Instead of pointing at the ideas of people long ago, I want to personalise it. By asking what people who believe in Heaven think what it would take for me to get there, I am finding out their ideas of what Heaven means to them, and as you can see they're many different ones, and the choices they make for themselves.

I would give a very cynical explanation about the concept of Heaven. But already I have got some pretty interesting angles about the subject. So for me the thread has already delivered. Anything more is just gravy. Not every thread needs to be about proving others are wrong about their ideas. We've got enough of those. Discussion grind to a halt and all must yield for the sake of championing your own ideas (yours truly being just as guilty).

And there's quite a few more points to this thread.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

You have to find a religion and god that you believe in first, and then follow it's edicts on eternal salvation?

Without that, why are you concerned?

Matthew 5 to 7 seems to be it. But, Ziggy, from your previous threads it looks like you know all this as well as anyone.

So, I don't get the point of this thread.

The point is its been long time we have had thread of this kind around...

 

[Core Imposter]

The point is that with Morsi thinking about sending tanks to the Sinai we might not have much time left.

 

[Borachio]

The point of this thread is to focus on one specific element and see what others think about that element

Can't argue with this at all. I bet it gets derailed again, though.

(You're born, right? You die, right? What's not to like?)

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

The point is that with Morsi thinking about sending tanks to the Sinai we might not have much time left.

I know off better things to depend on...

Can't argue with this at all. I bet it gets derailed again, though.

(You're born, right? You die, right? What's not to like?)

Well as the OP said the thread served its purpose. So happy derailing!

 

[Heerlo]

And see, here's a problem for me right here. How does this one work? To me, if you will forgive me, this is just plain crazy. How does getting crucified pay anything for anyone? It's just an execution. Makes no sense at all.

Because it was neccasary that the Wrath Of God that we deserve come on someone.Jesus was perfect.He had never sinned and still never has.He was the only One who, being put do death, could atone for all sin through His death, becasue He was perfect.There had to be someone innocent that could take the punishment that we all deserve so we could be saved.Jesus did that.And if you don't accept what He did, then there is no way you will ever get to Heaven.Please see my earlier post for more information.

And, like I said earlier, God doesn't want anyone to go to Hell.By being born sinners(which all humans are naturally born that way)we were automatically on our way to Hell.So if God wanted us to go to Hell, then why would He send His Son to die so that we would have a way to escape it?

He made a way to escape Hell.So if you refuse to accept what Jesus has done in giving His Life for your sins, then you will not make it to Heaven, and it will be no one's fault but your own.

I wish all of you would accept Jesus and what He did for you, if you have not already.We are all born sinners, because Adam and Eve, the first humans, disobeyed God, and since we come from them, we are like them-sinners.We all owed a sin dept.Jesus paid it.

So please, accept what He has done for you.Pray to God, and acknowlodge to Him that you are a sinner, which we all are, unless you have accepted Him.Ask God for forgiveness, and make known to God that you accept the Sacrifice of His Son for to save us.And, like I said, if you don't accept Him, you will not make it to Heaven.Not because I said it, but because the Bible, which is God's Word, says it.

I cannot save you, and no one else can, but only Jesus could, by giving His life for us all.

Please, just accept it.

And if you do accept it, read the Bible and obey it, and go to a church that teaches what the Bible says.

 

[Arakhor]

Please, just accept it.

Apart from the fact that you're still proselytising, why would anyone want to just "accept" that they are miserable sinners caused in reality by the events of Jewish mythology and thus doomed to eternal damnation?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Can't argue with this at all. I bet it gets derailed again, though.

(You're born, right? You die, right? What's not to like?)

Mr. Eric Idle I presume

What have you got to lose? Nothing!

Well as the OP said the thread served its purpose. So happy derailing!

Well, I would still like to see the evangelicals really give their thoughts in the way as described by the OP. Their ideas are the furthest away from me with regard to spirituality, so they could be the most interesting.

If only they'd give themselves the chance to voice their own thoughts on the matter.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Because it was neccasary that the Wrath Of God that we deserve come on someone.Jesus was perfect.He had never sinned and still never has.He was the only One who, being put do death, could atone for all sin through His death, becasue He was perfect.There had to be someone innocent that could take the punishment that we all deserve so we could be saved.Jesus did that.And if you don't accept what He did, then there is no way you will ever get to Heaven.Please see my earlier post for more information.

And, like I said earlier, God doesn't want anyone to go to Hell.By being born sinners(which all humans are naturally born that way)we were automatically on our way to Hell.So if God wanted us to go to Hell, then why would He send His Son to die so that we would have a way to escape it?

He made a way to escape Hell.So if you refuse to accept what Jesus has done in giving His Life for your sins, then you will not make it to Heaven, and it will be no one's fault but your own.

I wish all of you would accept Jesus and what He did for you, if you have not already.We are all born sinners, because Adam and Eve, the first humans, disobeyed God, and since we come from them, we are like them-sinners.We all owed a sin dept.Jesus paid it.

So please, accept what He has done for you.Pray to God, and acknowlodge to Him that you are a sinner, which we all are, unless you have accepted Him.Ask God for forgiveness, and make known to God that you accept the Sacrifice of His Son for to save us.And, like I said, if you don't accept Him, you will not make it to Heaven.Not because I said it, but because the Bible, which is God's Word, says it.

I cannot save you, and no one else can, but only Jesus could, by giving His life for us all.

Please, just accept it.

And if you do accept it, read the Bible and obey it, and go to a church that teaches what the Bible says.

You know temptation? And how that's a bad thing?

Consider you're a temptation for me to start a very unfriendly rant towards people who despite their good intentions, doesn't have the decency to listen to others while demanding their attention.

I'm sure giving into those temptation won't help my chances of getting to Heaven, so for my soul's sake, cut it out.

 

[Heerlo]

Apart from the fact that you're still proselytising, why would anyone want to just "accept" that they are miserable sinners caused in reality by the events of Jewish mythology and thus doomed to eternal damnation?

Just look around the world, and what do you see?Wars, people killing each other, commiting sin on a daily basis, and all the bad things that people do.How could it be that people are not miserable sinners?

And how could you think this world, and the human race, could have come into existence without someone designing all this?We are just the right distance from the sun.None of the planets ever hit each other.

Everything on the Earth works like it is supposed to.Like God set it in order.If evolution were true, don't you think that we might, say, have an arm sticking out of our chests?And all sorts of body parts out of wack?Why is it that everything is so neatly organized, and everything fits just right?

We have an arm on each side, and two legs, not an arm sticking out of our chest and a leg sticking out of our back.What good would that do, anyway?

If you will just stop and think about the way everything is, how could there not have been someone to design all of this?And obviously, at some point in the past, mankind has fallen into sin, and without God we are all miserable sinners.

Everything has happened, is happening, and will happen exactly as the Bible has said.

I just wish all of you to be saved, and not have to go through an eternity in Hell, and that's why I'm saying all this.

 

[Arakhor]

Well, of course you're a creationist, but that's an entirely separate argument. Please don't have it here.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

As with most philosophical questions, Brian Adams has the answers


Link to video.

 

[bathsheba666]

And how could you think this world, and the human race, could have come into existence without someone designing all this?
We are just the right distance from the sun.
None of the planets ever hit each other.

Everything on the Earth works like it is supposed to.Like God set it in order.If evolution were true, don't you think that we might, say, have an arm sticking out of our chests?And all sorts of body parts out of wack?Why is it that everything is so neatly organized, and everything fits just right?

We have an arm on each side, and two legs, not an arm sticking out of our chest and a leg sticking out of our back.What good would that do, anyway?

If you will just stop and think about the way everything is, how could there not have been someone to design all of this?And obviously, at some point in the past, mankind has fallen into sin, and without God we are all miserable sinners.

Everything has happened, is happening, and will happen exactly as the Bible has said.

I just wish all of you to be saved, and not have to go through an eternity in Hell, and that's why I'm saying all this.

Admittedly it would take an awful lot of your posts to add up to an eternity.... but a lot fewer than others, it seems. But thanks for the attempted foresight.

Your logic is twaddle, the bible is badly edited twaddle that everyone has, is, and will interpret as they wish. Tarot readings are as effective and, more importantly, quicker.

 

[GhostWriter16]

That quote says 'life'. Stop interpreting it to suit your own perspectives and then claiming that you only ever take a literal reading.



If you believe in original sin, maybe. I'm neither a Catholic nor a Calivinist and I don't accept such a blatant supernatural control mechanism.

Actually, Original Sin has frighteningly little to do with it, unless you believe you yourself are perfect. Otherwise you* have offended an eternal being and so would deserve eternal punishment unless you are forgiven.

*"You" is not referencing Arakhor directly, but can refer to literally anyone on the planet, including yours truly.

Yes, and I pray you heed those goings on, as it is the Spirit, and our time is limited.

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh

Look, I'm not even a Christian. My point is simply that virtually every Christian I've met thinks that 90+% of humanity will be eternally, "pornographically" ( good word ) tortured in hell, and that several famous Christian thinkers have expressed the idea that the primary purpose of this is to act as salvation porn for the Elect. You're the first Christian I've ever come across who doesn't, actually. Other people avoid describing it by saying it is far too horrible to be described.

If I recall, ParkCungHee is a Catholic, although I couldn't tell you how orthodox. I do know Catholics believe in Hell, but I don't think they believe God actually torments anyone there, so much as the torment is being completely separated from God (As an Evangelical this explanation also makes a lot of sense to me although obviously only God knows for sure.)

As for Calvinism, it arises naturally from the idea that God controls everything. It's either Calvinism or something awfully like Calvinism if it's anything.

I'm impressed that a non-Christian who doesn't study theology for a living even knows what Calvinism is

That said, what you are saying isn't even what most Calvinists would say. I have two Calvinist parents, and neither of them would take issue with statements like "God loves everyone" or "God doesn't want people to go to Hell."

That's actually a doctrinal difference between something called supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism. As I understand it, in Supralapsarianism, the beginning of the Earth goes something like this:

1. God elects who will go to Heaven, and who will go to Hell.

2. God creates the world.

3. The Fall.

4. God provides Salvation only for the elect. The Fall was God's tool to ensure the reprobate do not accept him.

Whereas the Infralapsarian process goes more like this.

1. God creates the world.

2. The Fall.

3. God elects who will go to Heaven, but does not actively predestine anyone to Hell. The reprobate, those who were not chosen, will choose Hell for themselves.

4. God provides Salvation only for the elect (An alternate Calvinistic view is the 4-point view which rejects limited atonement and say God provides the possibility for Salvation for all, but the non-elect will still choose Hell.)

For the record, depending on who you ask, I'm either a four-point Calvinist or a one-point Calvinist. The way I look at it is that somehow God is soveregn over all things, but man somehow really has a choice. Most Calvinists would agree with that, but will spend more time trying to explain how it works. Arminians, again, would often agree with this, but would spend more time trying to explain how it works. While I do enjoy debate, I usually just debate the opposite side as whoever I'm debating, since I'm very "On the fence" as it goes.

Here's the thing for me:

Supralapsarianism is definitely false because that would mean God is unjust. You could be right, philosophically, about the whole omnibenevolence thing, but God's character is revealed to us in Scripture, which is clear we are damned for our sins, and not merely because we were predestined to Hell. In fact, there's literally nothing in the Scriptures that talks about people being predestined to Hell. There are scriptures about people being sent there, and Scriptures about people being predestined as God's people (Ephesians 2) but I don't think there are any Scriptures whatsoever that actually describe anyone being predestined to Hell. So basically, God wouldn't elect people for Hell who hadn't yet sinned. Its simply unjust.

Now, there's a bit of dispute about something called "Federal Headship." The view basically means that everyone deserves Hell for Adam's sin, rather than only their own personal sins. I think you pretty much have to accept that in order to accept Calvinism, and there is Biblical evidence for it, although I'm not 100% convinced. I do know, however, that our Original Sins do deprave us to a point where we cannot be righteous without God's help (Romans 3:10-11.)

Infralapsarianism might not seem much better, but it would be just because God is, first of all, not predestining anyone to Hell (Double Predestination, which is what you were advocating for) but secondly, because even if he did, those people would actually have been guilty already. A judge can sentence a guilty person to death, but not until he's guilty, otherwise its unjust. The Bible does seem to teach that our consciences were God-given (Texts in Romans talking about Gentiles being a "Law unto themselves") so that God would so blatantly be different from them wouldn't make sense to me. He is eternal, and so the penalty for defying him is infinite, but he doesn't punish innocent people (there just aren't any, anymore)

I personally lie somewhere in between, although I'm still doing some theological inquiry on the subject. As an unbeliever, just realize that you DO have a choice and you won't be able to plead innocence because you were somehow unable to believe.

Another word game. If God is God then he planned everything by definition. The fall couldn't possibly have been an accident.

"Accident." No. I personally think God allowed it because he wanted to give Adam a choice, rather than making him a robot. I think some more hardcore Calvinists might take issue with that proposition though. Some might not, however, I know at least some of the Calvinists I know IRL admit that Adam and Eve are somewhat tricky for their predestination theology, since they had to have had free will.

I still maintain that nobody actually thinks Anne Frank repented at the last moment. Nobody would put their Vegas money on it. Entertaining that thought is a rhetorical dodge to avoid having to say "Yes, my eternally loving God is/will eventually begin tormenting Anne Frank for infinity billion years." I understand that nobody deliberately leads with this fact, but they tend to believe it, don't they?

I didn't say she did. I said it was possible.

I mean no personal offense to you GhostWriter16. I am just expressing my take on the whole affair.

You seem like a decent fellow so don't think I personally dislike you.

I wasn't offended. I just think that to present Supralapsarian Calvinism as The Biblical view is a bit crazy when even among Evangelical Christians there is so much debate on the subject. I've seen some people think that Calvinism is absolutely inseparable from the text and others say its unable to be placed into the text. I still think its a bit debatable. But you won't find double predestination ANYWHERE in the text, so I'd advise you not to present the Biblical God that way unless you can find evidence of it.

I hope the fact that I showed you the destinction (Between double predestination and regular predestination) will get you to look at it again.

No worries

Because it was neccasary that the Wrath Of God that we deserve come on someone.Jesus was perfect.He had never sinned and still never has.He was the only One who, being put do death, could atone for all sin through His death, becasue He was perfect.There had to be someone innocent that could take the punishment that we all deserve so we could be saved.Jesus did that.And if you don't accept what He did, then there is no way you will ever get to Heaven.Please see my earlier post for more information.

And, like I said earlier, God doesn't want anyone to go to Hell.By being born sinners(which all humans are naturally born that way)we were automatically on our way to Hell.So if God wanted us to go to Hell, then why would He send His Son to die so that we would have a way to escape it?

He made a way to escape Hell.So if you refuse to accept what Jesus has done in giving His Life for your sins, then you will not make it to Heaven, and it will be no one's fault but your own.

I wish all of you would accept Jesus and what He did for you, if you have not already.We are all born sinners, because Adam and Eve, the first humans, disobeyed God, and since we come from them, we are like them-sinners.We all owed a sin dept.Jesus paid it.

So please, accept what He has done for you.Pray to God, and acknowlodge to Him that you are a sinner, which we all are, unless you have accepted Him.Ask God for forgiveness, and make known to God that you accept the Sacrifice of His Son for to save us.And, like I said, if you don't accept Him, you will not make it to Heaven.Not because I said it, but because the Bible, which is God's Word, says it.

I cannot save you, and no one else can, but only Jesus could, by giving His life for us all.

Please, just accept it.

And if you do accept it, read the Bible and obey it, and go to a church that teaches what the Bible says.

standing up for our faith

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I have structured part of your post like this:

A.Because it was neccasary that the Wrath Of God that we deserve come on someone.Jesus was perfect.He had never sinned and still never has.He was the only One who, being put do death, could atone for all sin through His death, becasue He was perfect.There had to be someone innocent that could take the punishment that we all deserve so we could be saved.Jesus did that.
B.And if you don't accept what He did, then there is no way you will ever get to Heaven.

Now what you are saying in A makes some sense:
In my words you are saying that the world(people) has accumulated certain bad karma which would threaten them with sever punisment perhaps even massive destruction if executed by cosmic forces as in old testaments tit for tat. But your reasoning that Jesus could take this karma into himself only becouse he was innocent is wrong. In my opinion the reason for that was only becouse of his spiritual stature. He was above these laws yet sympatized with humanity. He could have done it in silence but he choosed to do it outwardly and with symbolism becouse he saw that it could convince peoples minds. And most importantly he did that unconditinaly.

Now my big question is how did you come from A. to B? Becouse I see no logic in it.