What Happend to the Terrain?

[Hydromancerx]

First the stats of the existing Earth terrains ...

Barren
+1 Adjacent to River
Improvement take +25% to Build

Desert
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +3
Improvement take +25% to Build
Defending Units get -25% Strength
Cities cannot settle here unless coastal or freshwater.
Gives Terrain Damage

Dunes
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +4
Improvement take +50% to Build
Cities cannot settle here unless coastal or freshwater.
Gives Terrain Damage

Grassland
+2
+1 Adjacent to River

Ice
Movement Cost +4
Improvement take +75% to Build
Cities cannot settle here unless coastal or freshwater.
Gives Terrain Damage

Lush
+3
+1 Adjacent to River

Marsh
+1
+1
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +3
Improvement take +50% to Build
Cities cannot settle here unless coastal or freshwater.

Muddy
+1
+1
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +2
Improvement take +25% to Build
Cities cannot settle here unless coastal or freshwater.

Plains
+1
+1
+1 Adjacent to River

Rocky
+1
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +2
Improvement take +25% to Build
Defending Units get +25% Strength

Salt Flats
+1 Adjacent to River
Improvement take +25% to Build
Defending Units get -25% Strength
Cities cannot settle here unless coastal or freshwater.
Gives Terrain Damage

Scrub
+1
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +2

Taiga
+1
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +2
Improvement take +25% to Build
Gives Terrain Damage

Tundra
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +3
Improvement take +50% to Build
Gives Terrain Damage

Ok my next post will propose changes and new terrain.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok so the Polar ones first.

Polar Rocky (New)
+1
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +2
Improvement take +25% to Build
Defending Units get +25% Strength
Gives Terrain Damage

Taiga (Tweaked Taiga)
+1
+1
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +2
Gives Terrain Damage

Tundra (Tweaked)
+1
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +2
Improvement take +25% to Build
Gives Terrain Damage

Permafrost (Tweaked)
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +3
Improvement take +50% to Build
Gives Terrain Damage

Ice (Same)
Movement Cost +4
Improvement take +75% to Build
Cities cannot settle here unless coastal or freshwater.
Gives Terrain Damage

Glacier (New)
Movement Cost +5
Improvement take +100% to Build
Cities cannot settle here unless coastal or freshwater.
Gives Terrain Damage

 

[Hydromancerx]

Now for the Arid biomes ...

Arid Barren (New)
+1 Adjacent to River
Improvement take +25% to Build
Gives Terrain Damage

Arid Rocky (Tweaked Rocky)
+1
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +2
Improvement take +25% to Build
Defending Units get +25% Strength
Gives Terrain Damage

Arid Scrub (New)
+1
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +2
Gives Terrain Damage

Semi-Arid Desert (Tweaked Desert)
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +3
Improvement take +25% to Build
Defending Units get -25% Strength
Cities cannot settle here unless coastal or freshwater.
Gives Terrain Damage

Arid Desert (New)
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +4
Improvement take +50% to Build
Defending Units get -25% Strength
Cities cannot settle here unless coastal or freshwater.
Gives Terrain Damage

Dunes (Tweaked)
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +5
Improvement take +75% to Build
Cities cannot settle here unless coastal or freshwater.
Gives Terrain Damage

Salt Flats (Same)
+1 Adjacent to River
Improvement take +25% to Build
Defending Units get -25% Strength
Cities cannot settle here unless coastal or freshwater.
Gives Terrain Damage

 

[Hydromancerx]

Rugged and Volcanic ones ...

Rocky Barren (New)
+1
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +2
Improvement take +25% to Build
Defending Units get +25% Strength

Lush Rocky (New)
+3
+1
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +2
Improvement take +25% to Build
Defending Units get +25% Strength

Chaparral (Renamed Scrub)
+1
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +2

Polar Volcanic (New)
+1
+1
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +2
Improvement take +25% to Build
Defending Units get +25% Strength
Gives Terrain Damage

Rich Volcanic (New)
+1
+2
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +2
Improvement take +25% to Build
Defending Units get +25% Strength

Active Volcanic (New)
+1
+2
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +3
Improvement take +25% to Build
Defending Units get +25% Strength
Cities cannot settle here unless coastal or freshwater.
Gives Terrain Damage

Scorched (New)
+2
+1 Adjacent to River
Improvement take +50% to Build

 

[Hydromancerx]

Grasslands and Plains ...

Rich Loam (New)
+4
+1 Adjacent to River

Lush (Same)
+3
+1 Adjacent to River

Grassland (Same)
+2
+1 Adjacent to River

Plains (Same)
+1
+1
+1 Adjacent to River

Savannah (New)
+1
+1
+1 Adjacent to River
Improvement take +25% to Build

Humid Scrub (New)
+2
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +2

 

[Hydromancerx]

Muddy and Forests ...

Swamp (New)
+1
+1
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +5
Improvement take +100% to Build
Cities cannot settle here unless coastal or freshwater.

Bog (New)
+1
+1
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +4
Improvement take +75% to Build
Cities cannot settle here unless coastal or freshwater.

Marsh (Same)
+1
+1
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +3
Improvement take +50% to Build
Cities cannot settle here unless coastal or freshwater.

Muddy (Same)
+1
+1
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +2
Improvement take +25% to Build
Cities cannot settle here unless coastal or freshwater.

Deciduous (New)
+2
+1
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +2
Improvement take -25% to Build

Conifer (New)
+1
+2
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +2
Improvement take -25% to Build

Boreal (New)
+1
+2
+1 Adjacent to River
Movement Cost +2
Improvement take -25% to Build

Note sure how to make this different from Conifer.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok so I think i got them all except for Krast, which i am not sure whta to put. I tried to make them all different from each other. So for promotions the following would be on these lines ...

Arctic Combat I = Taiga
Arctic Combat II = Tundra
Arctic Combat III = Permiforst
Arctic Combat IV = Ice
Arctic Combat V = Glacier

Rugged Arctic Combat = Polar Rocky
(Requires Rugged Combat 2 and Arctic Combat 2)

Desert Combat I = Arid Scrub
Desert Combat II = Semi-Arid Desert
Desert Combat III = Arid Desert
Desert Combat IV = Dunes
Desert Combat V = Salt Flats

Rugged Desert Combat = Arid Rocky
(Requires Rugged Combat 2 and Desert Combat 2)

Rugged Combat I = Chaparral
Rugged Combat II = Lush Rocky
Rugged Combat III = Rocky Barren
Rugged Combat IV = Lush Volcanic
Rugged Combat V = Active Volcanic

Volcanic Arctic Combat = Polar Volcanic
(Requires Rugged Combat 4 and Arctic Combat 2)

Wetland Combat I = Lush
Wetland Combat II = Muddy
Wetland Combat III = Marsh
Wetland Combat IV = Bog
Wetland Combat V = Swamp

Fieldsman Combat I = Grassland
Fieldsman Combat II = Plains
Fieldsman Combat III = Savannah
Fieldsman Combat IV = Humid Scrub
Fieldsman Combat V = Rich Loam

Forester I = Deciduous
Forester II = Conifer
Forester III = Boreal
Forester IV = Rainforest
Forester V = Scorched

I think these all worked out well for promotions.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Toffer90
https://forums.civfanatics.com/members/toffer90.219513/
What do you think of all these?

 

[Toffer90]

I understand this is important to you, but honestly, I think we got enough terrains as it is.
-I feel it's essential that no two terrains are so similar as to be mistaken for one another; that will be hard with so many new terrains (I'm afraid players will feel it's a mess instead of elegant.).
-I'm also thinking about all the extra textures that will have to be loaded in video memory throughout all games.
-Also it will be a pain to adjust all the map scripts to properly place all the new terrains.
-Not to mention all the xml that will have to be adjusted to account for full functionality of the new terrains.

My suggestion, we could start with implementing one or two of these that you feel must be in the game, then take a break, think it over some, and then consider if we want even more in the game.
I at least, am not motivated at working at such a large project now when I have so many things going on already.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Yeah its a big project in all aspects from map scripts to its impact on everything that depends on terrain such as promotions, cultures, animals spawning, terrain features etc.

I think it could be done if we add a little at a time. Of couse they would work best all together, but I do have some preferred stuff. I will get back to you on the plan of implementation.

 

[Hydromancerx]

This is hard to pick. On the one hand I would like to make sure all the old art is represented such as ...

- Barren -> Scorched
- Rocky -> Arid Rocky
- Dunes -> Dunes
- Muddy -> Muddy
- Scrub -> Arid Scrub

On the other hand they are not all easy to add. The easiest add would be the extremes such as Glacier being on the cold extreme beyond Ice. Or added in the new desert ones. Even the new Wetlands should not be too hard.

The ones I am not all that passionate about would be the forest ones like Conifer and Deciduous. but i know others wanted them in the past. Rich Loam i was also another requested on that was not from me. However something beyond Lush would be interesting.

The Volcanic and Rocky variation I think could really flesh out that area in terrain. However I think they are one o the hardest to implement.

It just too bad you guys changed the terrain art in the first place.

 

[Toffer90]

The easiest add would be the extremes such as Glacier being on the cold extreme beyond Ice.

I feel glacier is more a feature than a terrain. like placing the ocean ice on land.

Even the new Wetlands should not be too hard.

What does a swamp become when its forest is chopped, basically a marsh, so I think it's enough to just have swamp as a feature like it is.
I might want to implement bog as a terrain, but we do already have it as a feature, though that feature does look like a tundra at summertime. The bog feature could be renamed to "Fertile Tundra", or "Lichen Patch", and be unique for the tundra (and taiga?) terrain.

The ones I am not all that passionate about would be the forest ones like Conifer and Deciduous. but i know others wanted them in the past.

It would make more sense to separate all the different forest art into their own feature, than to add these terrains. That would be

However something beyond Lush would be interesting.

You mean a terrain that is more humid/moist than lush but less than muddy?

 

[Hydromancerx]

I feel glacier is more a feature than a terrain. like placing the ocean ice on land.

Well based on the art you showed it looks more like a glacier. What if both? Like that terrain generates land ice sheets? We could make a new kind of "forest" that uses the sea ice graphic.

What does a swamp become when its forest is chopped, basically a marsh, so I think it's enough to just have swamp as a feature like it is.
I might want to implement bog as a terrain, but we do already have it as a feature, though that feature does look like a tundra at summertime. The bog feature could be renamed to "Fertile Tundra", or "Lichen Patch", and be unique for the tundra (and taiga?) terrain.

The naming is less important for those. We could have "Everglades", "Bijou", "Moor", "Mire, "Quag", etc.There are a few way we could do them.

A. One is for Polar, one is for Temperate and one is for the Tropics.

B. They are increasingly wetter. Thus slowing the unit down more and more.

It would make more sense to separate all the different forest art into their own feature, than to add these terrains. That would be

Well past arguments have been that if you chop down a tree you still have all the undergrowth of a forest. As well as the same climate as whatever forest. Such as with a tropical rainforest having very poor soil. Thus it would be unrealistic to have it say turn into a grassland. Or alteast that's what i recall them saying in their defense of the issue.

You mean a terrain that is more humid/moist than lush but less than muddy?

Lush was ment to be the most fertile type of terrain at +3 food. While the new Rich Loam would be a +4 food. In all other ways it is the same as lush. its humidity i don't think mattered.

 

[Toffer90]

As I feel Marsh and swamp are mostly differentiated by there being a forest on top or not, we already got the movement penalty increase from the forest feature.
I agree that we need bog as a wetland type, it is quite specific and differs in enough ways (acidic low neutrient soil, peat deposit) and we need a wetland type that looks good around taiga, grass and plains in the northern areas of the map. Bog can be just as movement restrictive as a marsh imo.

Here's my suggestions:
Bog feature ▬ +1 movement cost ▬ only on flatland ▬ can be on Fen, Taiga and (cold) plains/grass terrains ▬ I'll rework the graphics used for the peat bog feature and rename "Peat Bog" to just "Bog"

Terrains:
Muddy ▬ +1 movement cost ▬ can have swamp feature if flatland (movement cost sum: +3) ▬ can have forest (movement cost sum: +2)
Fen ▬ +2 movement cost ▬ restricted to cold areas on the map that are warmer than tundra ▬ can have swamp feature if flatland (movement cost sum: +4) ▬ can have forest (movement cost sum: +3)
Marsh ▬ +3 Movement cost ▬ restricted to warm temperate and tropical climate ▬ can have swamp feature if flatland (movement cost sum: +5) ▬ can have forest (movement cost sum: +4)

Mangroves features are basically swamps restricted to tropical salt water.... Coastal Wetlands (not around fresh water lakes).

Or:
Peat Bog feature ▬ +1 movement cost ▬ only on flatland ▬ can be on Fen, Bog, Taiga and (cold) plains/grass terrains ▬ I might rework its graphics.
Terrains:
Muddy ▬ +1 movement cost ▬ can have swamp feature if flatland (movement cost sum: +3) ▬ can have forest (movement cost sum: +2)
Fen ▬ +2 movement cost ▬ restricted to cold areas on the map that are warmer than tundra ▬ can have swamp feature if flatland (movement cost sum: +4) ▬ can have forest (movement cost sum: +3)
Bog ▬ +3 movement ▬ restricted to cold areas on the map that are warmer than tundra ▬ Can have Peat bog feature if flatland (movement cost sum: +4)▬ Would graphically look similar to Fen but with dots of small dark blue ponds.
Marsh ▬ +3 Movement cost ▬ restricted to warm temperate and tropical climate ▬ can have swamp feature if flatland (movement cost sum: +5) ▬ can have forest (movement cost sum: +4)


To me the humidity and temperature factors are important as my mapscript uses a temperature and rainfall map to decide what terrains to use where. Except for Rocky terrain where it uses altitude modified by a random percentage to place those.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Looks like you're finding good common ground. Sorry for the pun... Im staying out of it unless i get a strong opinion on anything here but I am following along with interest.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well I agree that the Peat Bog feature is good in the Tundra terrain. In real life they do have peat bogs in the warmer seasons and then the freeze over.

The current "Swamp" feature should probably be renamed to "Reeds" or "Cattails" if we want to have a Swamp terrain feature. Note this would be only a text name change and not a tag name change.

The mangroves use to look like actual mangroves take from ZT2, but I think there was some issues with the model and it was taken out. The current version is a bit weird not looking like mangroves at all. I think we should use the Deciduous forest graphics and then chnage the texture to a different shade of green to match the mangrove. Right now the graphic look like palm trees which is not what mangroves look like.



So the Swamp terrain shown here (Masters of Mana's Marsh) looks very watrery. I think it should be the extreme wetland type of terrain. Perhaps mangroves can spawn on this terrain instead of the coastal ones. I am not sure what to rename it as. Maybe like "Estuary".

As our proposal they seem very similar to mine. The estuary should have +5 movement penalty since its basically shallow water. Like the marsh needs to be drained before used. Perhaps eve a later tech since its so extreme. If you want both a fen and bog that's fine however I think we might just need one. So like ...

Bog/Fen = Colder Climates (warmer than Tundra) -- Peat Bogs
Marsh = Temperate Climates -- Swamp and Peat Bogs
Estuary = Tropical Climates -- Swamp and Mangroves

I vaguely recall when the original terrain additions were added that the map scripts had temperature and what not. What are all the factors that determine placement on a map? Humidity? Temperature? Elevation? Soil Quality? Volcanic Areas?

As for the rocky perhaps they should be influenced by the other factors. As I showed above I had an Arid Rocky, Polar Rocky, Lush Rocky and Barren Rocky. So like the Polar rocky would generate in polar latitudes at higher elevations. Aird Rocky would generate in warm dry climates in higher elevations. Lush Rocky would generate in warmer wetter climates at higher elevations.

Likewise volcanic terrains could use the same deal. And then volcanoes would be more likely to spawn on those terrains. possibly even the terrain could chnage with the volcano from active to one of the other types depending where they were on the map.

 

[Toffer90]

I wanted a new rocky terrain that would have cold terrain damage and be placed around taiga, tundra and permafrost.

Thought I should hear your opinion on it.
Is it something I can just go ahead and add to the SVN, if so, do you have a suggestion for what to name it?
I was simply thinking "Rocky (Cold)"
I'm also considering making a rocky type called "Rocky (warm)" as well, it would be much more light brownish, and should be located around deserts, dunes and salt flats.

Should I add more green details to the regular rocky and more blue tints in the cold rocky?

 

[Shoobs]

Ok so I think i got them all except for Krast, which i am not sure whta to put. I tried to make them all different from each other. So for promotions the following would be on these lines ...

Arctic Combat I = Taiga
Arctic Combat II = Tundra
Arctic Combat III = Permiforst
Arctic Combat IV = Ice
Arctic Combat V = Glacier

Rugged Arctic Combat = Polar Rocky
(Requires Rugged Combat 2 and Arctic Combat 2)

Desert Combat I = Arid Scrub
Desert Combat II = Semi-Arid Desert
Desert Combat III = Arid Desert
Desert Combat IV = Dunes
Desert Combat V = Salt Flats

Rugged Desert Combat = Arid Rocky
(Requires Rugged Combat 2 and Desert Combat 2)

Rugged Combat I = Chaparral
Rugged Combat II = Lush Rocky
Rugged Combat III = Rocky Barren
Rugged Combat IV = Lush Volcanic
Rugged Combat V = Active Volcanic

Volcanic Arctic Combat = Polar Volcanic
(Requires Rugged Combat 4 and Arctic Combat 2)

Wetland Combat I = Lush
Wetland Combat II = Muddy
Wetland Combat III = Marsh
Wetland Combat IV = Bog
Wetland Combat V = Swamp

Fieldsman Combat I = Grassland
Fieldsman Combat II = Plains
Fieldsman Combat III = Savannah
Fieldsman Combat IV = Humid Scrub
Fieldsman Combat V = Rich Loam

Forester I = Deciduous
Forester II = Conifer
Forester III = Boreal
Forester IV = Rainforest
Forester V = Scorched

I think these all worked out well for promotions.

My two cents that can be easily ignored... I think we should not have the these put into a line that has TWO MORE deep. I already don't use these enough as I feel terrain specific promotions is often a poor upgrade to begin with due to the sheer variety of all the terrains in play... so I feel I would have even LESS reason to utilize these.

 

[Toffer90]

@Shoobs: My opinion is that all promotions within a terrain category should give combat bonuses to all the terrains in that category, so that "Arctic I" promotion gives just as much combat bonus to ice terrain as to permafrost, tundra, taiga and rocky cold (not a confirmed terrain yet.). Removing terrain damage should be how it already is though, so you need all arctic promotions to traverse the coldest (ice) terrain without taking damage.

 

[JosEPh_II]

But getting that Ice Promo (now level III) at level IV will be extremely difficult and even more narrowly defined.

Pbem games some of us are in the Ice III promo is only good if you are stuck with a terrible start location. I took over an Empire that was. And while the Ice III is necessary because Over half my cities are in Ice and I had to give up other more basic Promos that are necessary when you try to reach for more fertile terrain. Or need to defend the southern half of your empire. I bet most of you don't play a game if you have to start in this terrain type. So I would say your experience and reasoning may be incomplete, and I'll even go as far as to say slightly flawed imo.

This has been a Big gripe of mine for over 4 years now. We have Too Many promos and it's only getting worse not better. Overspecialized and overburdened system makes for a flawed and hard to manage system Imhpo.

Disclaimer: the above is all my opinion and can not construed as concrete fact.