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What happened to wages?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by hobbsyoyo, Jan 11, 2020.

  1. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    Not really tough to be an investment adviser the last decade.

    While the stock market has been a tool for the wealthy the lottery is a tax on poor people.
     
  2. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    If you are all investors you end up with a speculative bubble. Investing per se does not produce anything. It is an action with a goal of capturing a portion of what somebody else is producing, in the form of profit.

    To take and run with your example: if everyone abstains from buying a smartphone and instead invests on smart-phone makers, the market crashes for lack of demand and everyone ends up jobless and broke. This is an absurd example of course, but the point is: for some to profit from investment others must be consuming, and others yet must be laboring at a loss. But you know that, because...

    If you are really poor of course your overriding priority tends to be to exploit the system to work in your favor. It's magnificently summarized in that scene in Parasite:

    Perhaps worrying about others is indeed a "luxury". But do not begrudge people who do it. It's the only way life in a community improves. Systems can be changed.

    It was a generation whose fathers left them a legacy of an improving system for the common man, and who changed that system much for the worse. A generation who could get essentially free education. It was far from being universal, but higher education was also not (as it is today) a nearly universal requirement for employment. A generation who lived through an era of improving wages and state services.

    If the system could be changed during the boomers' time to make it so much worse, why can't it be changed again to make it better? And if everyone's ethics and aims is about taking advantage of everyone else to survive, it is about looting not producing. It's decadence, not construction. Very understandably, young people wish for more than living as looters. You should he glad for that, not cynical over it. Cynicism is the worst kind of politics there is...
     
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  3. Commodore

    Commodore Deity

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    There is absolutely no reason those three groups have to be mutually exclusive though. A factory worker can also be an investor while also being a consumer. Hell, that factory worker may even be investing in and consuming the very product he labors to produce.

    My line about smartphones wasn't a call to abstain from purchasing a smartphone, it was to make the point that if you can afford one, then you should have enough disposable income to dedicate to investing. Especially since there are a bunch of apps out there right now that allow people to invest without requiring them to have any prior knowledge or experience in investing.
     
  4. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    When I'm running the numbers, I keep trying to figure out what would happen if regular folk saved more. Dollars. In comparison to buying things on credit. It would create competition for the 0.1% who gobble up the productive property. The reduction in credit-based purchases means that more of the dollars would be going to the customers and to the suppliers of the products.

    I mean, the world where we don't save and buy things on credit HAS shuttled money upwards pretty quickly. And those dollars don't buy production, they purchase ownership. And that's creating the imbalance.
     
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  5. Commodore

    Commodore Deity

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    I don't know if this statement is accurate. I was making some pretty good money and never had a problem finding a job before I got my degree. Of course I also worked a lot of crap jobs to work my way up to where I am now. My story isn't unique or rare either. Plenty of people out there are able to build successful careers in a wide variety of fields without ever stepping foot on a college campus.

    The idea that a degree is a requirement for employment nowadays is the "great lie" that has been fed to the people that has created the student loan debt crisis we have now. In other words: the "you need a degree" line isn't so much a cold, hard fact as it is a great marketing ploy for universities.
     
  6. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Money is (mostly) debt. It is created as debt. In accounting every credit has a corresponding debit. Every financial asset is someone else's debt. For accumulation to keep increasing the debt must keep piling up. This is why nobody who is wealthy and greedy, and knows how money works, wants to lower the general level of debt. It's rather the opposite, they will want to keep increasing it and fugure out new ways to make it "sustainable". 50-yead debt. 100-year debt! Zero rates. Negative interest debt!

    The real prize is playing the lord, as creditor, over the debtors. The divine right of the aristocracy is no more, all hail the self-righteous right of the creditor.

    If the creation of debt were restricted, limited (not even going into the old remedy of debt jubilees to discourage of build-up of debt), so would the power of creditors be limited. Unsurprisingly, they never want that.

    It is a great lie indeed. But it works, marketing works.

    And worse, sometimes (many times?) people without degrees are also persuaded that they "don't deserve", can't demand, higher wages even where they are doing something very much necessary.
     
  7. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    Everyone loves a ladder reset in MMOs, you'd think we could figure something cool out for money.
     
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  8. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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  9. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Well, notice how it roughly doubles the U-3 measure...
     
  10. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Of course it is higher. It measures a different group of people. Each of the U numbers measures something different. But U6 is at a 20 year low. If you think that U6 is a better gauge than U3, fine, but like U3 it is much improved over the past ten years. Are you counted in either or both numbers?
     
  11. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Okay, I'm not sure why you are removing this from the original context it was in, which was me responding to the claim that unemployment is already as low as it can go. It is at a 20 year low, great. The policy change away from full-employment happened well over 20 years ago.
     
  12. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    You didn't say that in your post which is why I asked "why?" U3 will be hard pressed to get much lower. To bring down U6, we will need more service sector jobs which don't happen unless we grow the GDP. Finding jobs to bring down U6 is kinda like the last mile problem for various service businesses. It is the hardest part. Creating and maintaining jobs is hard. It is even harder in rural areas, and for people with few skills and who may not be motivated. Many part time workers don't want more work or they will lose other benefits. A simpler solution is UBI.

    For those who might not be familiar with how unemployment is calculated in the US

     
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  13. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    Creating growth of GDP is imo as much understanding and focussing on growth factors for growth areas as understanding and focussing on a soft landing how to decrease the population in rural areas.

    Getting your human resources to locations where they are more productive and earn more.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
  14. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Yes, there are at least two issues. Rural areas need economic based jobs (jobs paid for from outside their area or region; not local service sector ones) thereby growing the "GDP" of their area, and the skilled people needed in growth areas need to migrate to those areas. They will need housing (affordable) and amenities to fit their lifestyle.

    Remote work is one solution to keeping population in rural areas, but for that to work the right infrastructure must be in place and those remote workers will need social and cultural support from the community. The only ways rural communities will survive are: retirement locations for those who don't need to work; remote work with above average pay; tourism; attract new industry to locate there, essentially growing the town. Entropy wins without an input of money!

    China was/is on the right track when they moved 400 million people from the country to the cities.
     
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  15. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    Americans moved into cities too... gentrification on the back of backdoor austerity.
     
  16. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    What's backdoor austerity?
     
  17. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Yes they did and still are. Gentrification rebuilds cities at the expense of the less skilled and educated. One solution is better inner city education and skills training. With a labor surplus such efforts were not necessary in the past, but that is changing and qualified workforce is currently the number one issue for growing companies. Having a qualified workforce will attract growing companies to that area.
     
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  18. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    When you run big deficits and have low interest rates but it's still austerity for 90%. I could have called it covert, that would have been better.
     
  19. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Oh yeah, that would totally cause it!
     

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