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What happened to wages?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by hobbsyoyo, Jan 11, 2020.

  1. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    But we've lost a ton of union power in the trades so now you have companies that 'can't find welders' when what they really mean is they can't find people willing and able to sink $10k into tools and then work for subpar wages. I will admit that I have no experience in independent trades but I have worked in a lot of shops that employ tradesmen and it's becoming common for companies to require them to provide their own tools, pay lower wages than in days past or both. Another common tactic is deliberate under staffing so the tradesmen have to work mandatory overtime without any choice in the matter. That scares people away too.
     
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  2. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    It's been 40 years dude. The extreme hasn't happened and isn't likely to.
    People looking for careers should always be sensitive to what's hot. They may not be always right, but anyone that doesn't has to shoulder some of the blame.
    I will excuse everyone that chooses based on love. Since I can understand why many would value that aspect over the money side.
     
  3. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    I don't know what you're trying to say.
     
  4. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    They're advertising for paid apprenticeships in Chicago. That's never happened in my lifetime. Demand is high. Yes there are some that are unscrupulous and will try to enslave you, but that's not really any different than the regular work place. I know I worked 50-60 hours a week just out of school for slave wages just for the opportunity.
     
  5. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    That the field is booming and the high demand for qualified workers shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. It doesn't take rocket scientist to see that.
     
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  6. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    So you suffered, thus this should be the standard we all look forward to?

    Pretty hard pill for me to swallow when you've got an investor class with asinine compensation and golden parachutes.

    You just gave an out to those who can't participate due to love yet you don't seem to grasp how many people that would cover. Not everyone can move. Not everyone can afford college. Not everyone likes that kind of work. It makes no sense that those who do not choose (or are unable to choose) high salaried work should be forced into destitution with non-living wages when society as a whole is as rich as it is.
     
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  7. civvver

    civvver Deity

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    I think you're overstating it, what we find trivial may actually be very challenging for many people. It takes a certain aptitude to do our job. The difference is maybe I'd never be a fantastic plumber but I can at least see how plumbing is done and have a concept of it in my mind, like connecting pipes and stuff like that. While in computer programming, what I do, you can't just look at it and say oh I see how that works. Half the time I don't even know how it works. It just kind of does! You build stuff on top of a lot of preexisting tools and such. It's abstract and esoteric in a way.

    There's a name for this phenomenon but I can't remember what it's called. It's like opposite of dunning kruger, where everyone thinks they are smarter than they are, this effect is when people who have an aptitude for something and find it easy, figure that everyone else must be able to do it as well because they find it easy to do. I wish I could recall the name. It's like when you're helping a kid with math homework and they just don't get it and you want to scream look kid this really isn't that hard! or you're making this a bigger deal than it is!

    But anyway, on an individual level I think what Rah is saying is correct, personal choice for a majority of people has a lot to do with outcomes, but of course on a economy of scale level that's not true. It's like voting, on an individual level your vote really doesn't mean jack, but as a collection of millions of votes it does matter.

    I do take issue with some stuff like when fast food workers want the same pay as teachers, but yes the recent gain in wealth by our country hasn't been well distributed and this is by design, since the vast majority of wealth is made by investment and capital/intellectual ownership. Investments have the lowest taxes and the greatest gains. But poor people don't have any extra wealth to invest or buy capital or buy/patent ideas.

    Another reason wealth gains aren't distributed that well as opposed to in the past is actually due to tech. It only takes one person to invent a computer program that can then be duplicated infinitely for use and that one person can reap immense profits off a one time investment. While in the past if you made a product or something it costs to produce more of it and make more product. It doesn't cost anything to make more software, just some more gigabytes of space on a server. So when Henry Ford was inventing the Model T he had to buy steel and he had to pay workers to assemble it and so on and so forth, all things that distribute the gains through out society. When Bill Gates published windows they really don't have to distribute gains at all, or buy anything, or pay anyone to produce windows aside from their programmers. It's part of why off the shelf software is so affordable but also part of why all the gains by software companies don't really drive our economy beyond the tech people they hire. They don't invest that much in capital.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  8. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Okay, income should or at least can rise as you age. But this isn't what's under discussion (even though it's an awesome modern phenomenon itself). When people say wages have not risen, we mean that equivalent cohorts across time don't see much of the benefit of rising productivity
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
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  9. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    I guess I'm slightly biased since I was a plumber and carpenter when I was younger.
    Neither of those require much more skill than what I ended up doing. But I'll agree that I may not be the best example.
     
  10. civvver

    civvver Deity

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    you really undersell yourself lol
     
  11. Commodore

    Commodore Technology of Peace

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    I never liked this reasoning for not taking a job. At least not when it comes from someone who simultaneously complains about their bleak financial outlook.

    There's a piece of advice my father gave me that has served me well in life so far: Secure your finances first, even if that means working jobs you hate for years at a time. Then, once you have secured your financial future, you can start worrying about living your dreams.

    There's also the fact that you don't know what kind of opportunities that job you hate might open up for you. That's something else people need to consider when trying to "find their life's work."
     
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  12. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Night Elven Ghost Agent

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    Well, those are skilled trades (Which I'd kill to learn to escape Retail Hell). Though I'm not 100% sure on the salaries for them since it's dependent on what field they're in ranging from contract work or working in an industrial setting (e.g. a plumber being a pipefiter in a shipyard, though that's more of a specialist).
     
  13. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Night Elven Ghost Agent

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    Speaking from hearing from the younger people in my cohort. They don't want to get their hands dirty. Plus the education system has done a poor job of presenting career fields by pushing the idea that college is a path to a good life (It can be, if you chose the right major and manage your finances so that you're not burden with student debt) while shunning trades as being dirty, poor, and dumb work.

    I'd kill for an opportunity to learn a skilled trade. Especially if they designed it around it for people who are changing careers and don't look down upon people with useless college degrees (Some would look at it as being "overqualified" if you hold one).
     
  14. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    When I was younger I wasn't connected well enough to join a union for one of those positions. A buddy of mine did it independently. The pay wasn't great but it was certainly better than I could make in retail. (and I got to work outside)
    These days you don't have to be as connected. But Lex would probably more about that.
     
  15. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Are you intentionally missing the point of what I'm saying?
     
  16. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    No. I agree that there are structural issues. If you read my post, you will see that.
    BUT that doesn't mean that people shouldn't be looking at what's a hot field when they're making career choices.
    It doesn't take a genius that in the last 40 years, tech was a hot field, so yes, those that didn't choose it and failed have to shoulder some of the blame.
     
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  17. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    @rah the opposite side of the Dunning-Kruger effect is named “the Dunning-Kruger effect”.
     
  18. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    Damn, I'm so incompetent, I had to look that up, but still didn't get it. ;)
     
  19. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    I'm looking at your post and seeing someone who's claiming that they agree there are structural issues while still maintaining this:

    Once again, not everyone in the US can go into tech, so this is just moronic. If you really acknowledged the "structural issues" you would not be saying that people who did not go into tech are to blame for being paid poorly.
     
  20. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    You still haven't explained why not? All it takes is a few classes and you're qualified for level 1 help desk.
    I know many considerably not qualified people making decent money in the field.
    If you can't do that then look for another hot field. Trades for one.
    And if you can't make it in any field, I can't help you.
     

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