What if Alpha Centauri has no planets?

[bestbrian]

Unless they're xenophobes, in which case it's Attack of The Cricketmen!

 

[Eclipse-X010]

Don't know, the key word here is "little". How viable in the long run is a small artificial society? And is its ideology compatible with an unavoidable technocratic basis in case of orbiting space structures?

If we think far enough into the future something of this magnitude could be relatively simple and efficient. A space station could be created that was purely organic, and therefore could grow to accommodate population growth. Resources could be synthesized by absorbing stellar matter from the sun and using it to replicate food, water, breathable atmosphere, and whatever we need to survive. The stellar matter or whatever matter we end up using could also be used as 'food' for the ship which would allow it to grow as stated above. For power the station could use: antimatter, a micro singularity, a miniature star or various other future power means. Alternatively the power source used above could be used to convert energy into matter.

[Yes, I know this sounds crazy but if you told someone who lived 1000 years ago that man would one day walk on the moon he would have told you you were crazy (then he would have stuck a sword, ax, or pike in your chest). NOTE: If you are one of those conspiracy people who believed the Apollo landing never happened then please do not spam this forum with conspiracy theories or government cover ups.]

EDIT: There dosn't have to be a Earth like planet in the AC system (actually the proper term is the Proxima Centauri System) there just has to be a plane that's not to close or to far from the sun. I know we can't just shoot a Genesis Torpedo at the planet but we can still build structures on the planet that can sustain life almost indefinitely... or we cold terraform

 

[Dryhad]

Whether we will be in competition with aliens probably depends on 2 things
1) whether they are based on a chemistry which also requires earth-like worlds, or not

This still wouldn't necessarily lead to extermination of one race by the other. As I said, multiple groups of humans manage to coexist and we're based on the same chemistry!

2) whether we discover some vital strategic resource which is limited yet requires FTL travel, or some such

(In other words, if we are in competition, whether ipso facto or de facto.)

While historically more likely to end in extermination of one or the other, it's still possible to reach a peaceful solution.

If neither of these are true, for example if they live and thrive on large gas giants, then almost certainly we will not come into conflict at all.

And there's also that. Good points, Wodan.

Unless they're xenophobes, in which case it's Attack of The Cricketmen!

Or we are...

 

[frekk]

Don't know, the key word here is "little". How viable in the long run is a small artificial society? And is its ideology compatible with an unavoidable technocratic basis in case of orbiting space structures?

It would be interesting to find out, wouldn't it?

I would actually think small societies would be more stable and long-lasting than big ones. Some forms - eg clans and families - have been very durable through history, often surviving where nations collapse. The chief problem for small groups has historically been the fact that they are stuck on the same boat (the planet) as bigger and more ambitious groups seeking to incorporate or destroy them. This might not be a problem in discrete, self-sufficient stations in solar orbit, as they would not be sharing resources or space and there would be little to gain from hostile action (after a time, it is likely that each colony, as a closed system, would be protected from any sort of occupation by unique micro-organisms and diseases to which outsiders would have no immunity).

 

[r_rolo1]

^^Rapa Nui aka Easter Island.

Put that on a small pod in space and.....

 

[frekk]

^^Rapa Nui aka Easter Island.

Put that on a small pod in space and.....

Well their problem was limited resources in a system that was never designed to be self-sufficient; it was just an island, it wasn't designed at all.

 

[r_rolo1]

The problem was not self suficiency... the problem was too much pop and cockiness for just a island. I bet that a good deal of those colonies, if kept hermetically contained in human terms, would go exactly the same path.... and that in a place were you would need a minimum ammount of order to even breathe is a recipe for disaster.

 

[frekk]

The problem was not self suficiency... the problem was too much pop and cockiness for just a island.

The chief problem is thought to be that they completely deforested the island, which led to aggression and eventual collapse. Once they deforested the island, there was no wood for building or burning, no habitat for game, and nothing to keep the topsoil from eroding off the island (diminishing agriculture). It wasn't just because they were a bunch of people on a small island that they collapsed, since many societies in the Pacific managed just fine on small islands - early explorers even note the idyllic nature of these societies, and there are more than a few instances of captains having difficulty preventing their crews from going native (for instance, Captain Bligh and the Bounty in Tahiti).

 

[r_rolo1]

But easter islannd had 2 huge diference above the others: it was ( AFAIK ) the only Polinesian colonized island that was completely cut off of the rest of the world ( all the others had atleast incipient communications to atleast other island ), to the point that the inhabitants thinked that they were the last men on earth..... and it was one of the more cold islands that they colonized, leading to a smaller support ability. Those two together leaded fast to a buildup of social pressures that leaded ultimately to a colapse of the Pascoan society. Transpose that to a small colony and you'll see the ability of maintaining human survivavility to disapear ( given the high level of organization needed to maintain a small space colony ) pretty fast.....

I'm not saying that all of the colonies are faded to that end , but if you don't assure that there is a escape to social pressures, it is a quite possible scenario in a limited resources and space enviroment.

 

[frekk]

But easter islannd had 2 huge diference above the others: it was ( AFAIK ) the only Polinesian colonized island that was completely cut off of the rest of the world

Why would space stations be cut off from the rest of humanity? Presumably they'll have spacecraft (not to mention the Internet)

Also they'd have the ability to build more "islands" which the Easter Islanders couldn't do.

Last but not least: if we can't do small self-sustaining communities that can last at least a century or two, our chances of any offworld colonization will be very slim indeed.

 

[r_rolo1]

Why would space stations be cut off from the rest of humanity? Presumably they'll have spacecraft (not to mention the Internet)

That will happen to a lot of those space colonies because .....

Not only that but it affords the possibility for people of a like mind to create their own little societies, free from constraint. Separatists, utopianists, idealists, religious fanatics, and misanthropes of all stripes will find this infinitely more appealing than yet another planet.

... this is, people that want to cut bonds with the rest of Mankind. It is not necessarily a question of technical possibilities , but of wanting to communitate.

 

[frekk]

That will happen to a lot of those space colonies because .....
... this is, people that want to cut bonds with the rest of Mankind. It is not necessarily a question of technical possibilities , but of wanting to communitate.

Even the most radical Puritan utopianists still wanted English goods and news. Yes, I'm sure some groups would wander off into some frightening alternate reality and break down, and there would be the usual problems of tyrannical authorities and mutinous factions in some colonies - but this is standard fare in any sort of colonial project. A certain failure rate would be expected. Essentially any sort of offworld colonization is going to be much the same, any way you look at it self-sustaining artificial environments over long periods are going to be involved. Even if some extrasolar, Earthlike planet is found they'll still have to get there and work out microbial problems.

 

[r_rolo1]

Roanoke.....

I agree with you that not all of the groups would crack like a egg, but there is a factor that separates the colonial experiences of the possible space colonies: physical space. What we have learned so far in the long space permancies ( especially in MIR, were the cosmonauts were far less rotated than in ISS ), was that the sheer perception that they were confined + the inevitable disputes about petty things that arise when we are forced into a confined space with a small group of people for a long time ) would make people to be very stressed up and needed to be specially trained on Earth to sustain it ( and some heavy monitoring from ground control, that in MIR made that some possible confrotations to wear out by simply putting the contenders in oposite corners of the spacestation before it would degenerate in physical confrontation ). None of that would exist in a normal private enterprise like the ones you describe.....

If I had to bet , I would say that 50% of that space colonies would fail....

 

[frekk]

I agree with you that not all of the groups would crack like a egg, but there is a factor that separates the colonial experiences of the possible space colonies: physical space. What we have learned so far in the long space permancies ( especially in MIR, were the cosmonauts were far less rotated than in ISS ), was that the sheer perception that they were confined + the inevitable disputes about petty things that arise when we are forced into a confined space with a small group of people for a long time ) would make people to be very stressed up

Hmmm ... maybe a bit, but really, the knowledge we have comes from stuffing 6 or 10 people in the equivalent of a tiny 2-bedroom apartment for many months; no wonder they go a bit crazy. Even the ISS doesn't have much floor space for living. It doesn't really compare to anything like a Bernal Sphere:

http://www.nas.nasa.gov/About/Education/SpaceSettlement/70sArt/AC78-0330-4q.jpeg

And of course, again, we're dealing with the same problem in any sort of offworld colony, at least anything in the nearby neighbourhood (and anything far away will require a long, long trip in an artifical environment).

 

[r_rolo1]

A planet colony would normally have a very pratical way of dealing with it: a simple walk from time to time ( if possible OFC ) to release some steam or making a new colony pod (that IMHO would far more easy to do in a planet than in a full blown space colony, because a new space colony would need far more stuff to be a survivable enviroment ) , both of them easier to do in a planet.

But you're right: that is a shadow to all of the possible colonies in space.

 

[GeoModder]

NOTE: If you are one of those conspiracy people who believed the Apollo landing never happened then please do not spam this forum with conspiracy theories or government cover ups.]

You implying I'm a paranoid luddite or what?

EDIT: There dosn't have to be a Earth like planet in the AC system (actually the proper term is the Proxima Centauri System) there just has to be a plane that's not to close or to far from the sun. I know we can't just shoot a Genesis Torpedo at the planet but we can still build structures on the planet that can sustain life almost indefinitely... or we cold terraform

Actually, the proper term is Alpha Centauri system, which consists to some sources of the Alpha, Beta -and Proxima Centauri stars. And there are a number of other names for the system.
Constructing structures on an extra-solar terrestrial planet is certainly feasable, but I reckon this wouldn't happen before the same was done on planets like Mars in our star system.

 

[Wodan]

Constructing structures on an extra-solar terrestrial planet is certainly feasable, but I reckon this wouldn't happen before the same was done on planets like Mars in our star system.

Depends on how easy FTL travel turns out to be, I suppose. But you're probably right.

 

[bestbrian]

Humanity gone feral in space? Sounds like Metamporphosis Alpha to me.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

I was talking about alien microbeal life, not animals or 'people', (like going all genocidal on the Seraphim in the bland story of SupCom which pales in comparison to the epic man vs communist machine storyline of TA). It would be like when the Indians got exposed to smallpox, but for every species of infection on the planet. Massive cassualties because they had no previous exposure to weed out the vulnerable. So we'd either have to sustain horrendous losses every time we met a new bacteria, or steralize the planet and repopulate it with terran life.

I think I could take years on a spaceship pretty well. All I would need is my guitar, a violin to learn to play on the way, the complete works of JS Bach, and one woman of my choosing.

Of communications with Earth to Proxima Centauri, messages would take almost 9 years (4.3 light years apart) to get an answer back. If something goes wrong, everyone would be dead by the time the message got here.

Geomodder, Alpha Centauri B is not that same star as Beta Centauri.

 

[Willem]

I was talking about alien microbeal life, not animals or 'people', (like going all genocidal on the Seraphim in the bland story of SupCom which pales in comparison to the epic man vs communist machine storyline of TA). It would be like when the Indians got exposed to smallpox, but for every species of infection on the planet. Massive cassualties because they had no previous exposure to weed out the vulnerable. So we'd either have to sustain horrendous losses every time we met a new bacteria, or steralize the planet and repopulate it with terran life.

That's not necessarily true. All life on this planet shares a similar DNA makeup that makes many micro-organisms a potential threat, especially if a group has had no previous contact with it. Like in the case of the North American Indians. But life on another planet would probably have evolved quite differently and so any organism there will in all likelihood have a different DNA structure than ours. So an alien microorganism may not even be capable of adapting to our structure and would pose no threat. I'd say the odds of a plague caused by an off-world bacteria etc. would actually be quite slim.