But surely we can all agree that the one thing the game is lacking is MOAR EUROPEAN CIVS!!!
Personally I am appalled that mighty Leichtenstein has yet to be given it's due.
What is that violet-white civ on the mini map down there?
- Thread starter Piruparka
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Personally I am appalled that mighty Leichtenstein has yet to be given it's due.
Menzies -I dont need evidence I just need a plausible theory that fits the circumstances.
In the case of Riga the possibilities are 1 ) They have changed Venices nature entirely and have used a new XML for them - or - they aren't worried about each CS having a unique colour scheme and have just copied Venice and renamed it Riga meaning both CS's look the same. Do I think thats whats happened - No - is either circumsatance possible - yes. Are they likely - no. Do I agree with your theory yes
In the case of the colours from the minimap - I totally agree with your analysis and I think you are totally correct. However the whole theory rests on the assumption the devs have used two obscure colours off a fairly obscure version of a Venetian flag. The colours would not be considered to be traditional Venetian colours. A dev may simply have used a Purple and Cream combo because it hasn't been used elsewhere and is sufficiently different to whats already in the game for any number of Civs that we dont have traditional colours for
All the other things like cultural and Por to Zul have inherent other options to Venice.
I cant say it enough times - I agree with your hypothesis, I agree with your analysis and I have total respect for your efforts but not one thing you have posted is a hard fact - it's all excellent circumstantial evidence and it makes for a compelling case for Venice.
I think you are right and always have but you need to accept that there is always the possibility you are wrong.
In the case of Riga the possibilities are 1 ) They have changed Venices nature entirely and have used a new XML for them - or - they aren't worried about each CS having a unique colour scheme and have just copied Venice and renamed it Riga meaning both CS's look the same. Do I think thats whats happened - No - is either circumsatance possible - yes. Are they likely - no. Do I agree with your theory yes
In the case of the colours from the minimap - I totally agree with your analysis and I think you are totally correct. However the whole theory rests on the assumption the devs have used two obscure colours off a fairly obscure version of a Venetian flag. The colours would not be considered to be traditional Venetian colours. A dev may simply have used a Purple and Cream combo because it hasn't been used elsewhere and is sufficiently different to whats already in the game for any number of Civs that we dont have traditional colours for
All the other things like cultural and Por to Zul have inherent other options to Venice.
I cant say it enough times - I agree with your hypothesis, I agree with your analysis and I have total respect for your efforts but not one thing you have posted is a hard fact - it's all excellent circumstantial evidence and it makes for a compelling case for Venice.
I think you are right and always have but you need to accept that there is always the possibility you are wrong.
poom3619
Ping Pang Poom!
Menzies said he would actually delighted if all of his evidence toward Venice is turn out to be false. I too, also look forward for sensible assumption, no matter who made that.
Unfortunately, I found none of "theory" that anyone made to destroy Menzies' theory is plausible. Actually only one of it is plausible which is the dev are intentionally misdirecting anyone who spot it, which everyone already know that, actually.
(Did you know, Menzies know he can be wrong and you don't need an essay to tell that? FFS.)
Let's do this in parts:
1) They have changed city states types plenty of times before without giving their colour-type combination to another
-or- They have added of the order of 30 city states without giving one a used colour-type combination except in the case of replacements, this includes their behaviour in adding new city states for Brave New World so far
Neither of those fit the facts whatsoever and neither is a viable explanation. For your example before it would be like saying your "Dog" was in fact a centipede, just missing a few legs.
Maybe they might do something completely out of the ordinary, maybe they might break their own patterns, who knows. What we do know is that the two other alternatives you've offered don't match the facts we have, and in circumstances as you've presented they have not done anything of the sort, even with a fairly considerable dataset. The fun part here is that this (and the two options you offered in your post) are taken into account in the 1 in 63,280 odds calculated.
Obscure?
Wikipedia - Republic of Venice - Is the flag for the Wikipedia page
Google Search: Venice Flag - Derivatives of it appear twice in the first row, with a third parody version
Google Search - Venetian Flag - Appears in the top row
Should I go on? It's not obscure in the slightest, it's actually one of the most obvious examples.
Again, the odds of them picking out that purple and that cream, the exact ones off the flag, is pretty much lottery level odds. Even being really generous with the odds, at best you could rate it at 1 in 4520.
I get the fact that you think it's right as well, but if you're going to throw some doubt on it, at least make it plausible doubt. Put bluntly, unless there is any other "doubt" that you can throw on it, some other source of those exact colours for example, then the odds remain at the very least around 1 in 63,280 that it isn't Venice. That's a lot more than the 1 in 10 you're giving, and the 1 in 63,280 is being very conservative about it.
strijder20
Wallowing in irony
It's kind of odd they took purple and cream and not red and gold. But yes, Persia, I guess.
As discussed previously, they are very different colours. Here are the colour compairsons with Rome from earlier:
Rome is on the left. On the other hand, the Venetian Flag from Wikipedia's colours are a perfect fit to within compression error:
JSMCAG
King
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That's kinda not what I asked! I now know Rome's is darker, but I was more curious about Egypt's (the foreground - it's purple, isn't it?). Also Frances Cream, though it might be darker (going from memory). Is there any other Civilization with Cream? The Ottomans also have a Cream Background, if I'm not mistaken...
I guess I'm looking for other shades of Purple and Cream already used in the game - I find it weird that none searched for those (that I have seen) ...
I now know Rome's is darker, but I was more curious about Egypt's (the foreground - it's purple, isn't it?). Also Frances Cream, though it might be darker (going from memory). Is there any other Civilization with Cream? The Ottomans also have a Cream Background, if I'm not mistaken...I guess I'm looking for other shades of Purple and Cream already used in the game - I find it weird that none searched for those (that I have seen) ...
Sid Meier's Civilization V\Assets\Gameplay\XML\Interface\CIV5Colors.xml
The color codes for the civs are towards the end of the file. Multiply the numbers given by 255 then round it to the nearest integer for the proper value.
That's kinda not what I asked!
I guess I'm looking for other shades of Purple and Cream already used in the game - I find it weird that none searched for those (that I have seen) ...
Can you get a list of all the colours you want queried so I can do them all at once?
That's kinda not what I asked!
I guess I'm looking for other shades of Purple and Cream already used in the game - I find it weird that none searched for those (that I have seen) ...
We've gone over them, but none stood out and anything like the ones we saw. We've compared it to the colours seen for Rome, Egypt and such in the past.
Roman Purple: http://www.colorhexa.com/460076
Egyptian Purple: http://www.colorhexa.com/5300d0
French Cream: http://www.colorhexa.com/ebeb8b
Ottoman Cream: http://www.colorhexa.com/f7f9c8
For comparison:
Venetian Cream: http://www.colorhexa.com/fdfedb
Venetian Purple http://www.colorhexa.com/6622a2
Egyptian Purple: http://www.colorhexa.com/5300d0
French Cream: http://www.colorhexa.com/ebeb8b
Ottoman Cream: http://www.colorhexa.com/f7f9c8
For comparison:
Venetian Cream: http://www.colorhexa.com/fdfedb
Venetian Purple http://www.colorhexa.com/6622a2
Martinus
Emperor
You are of course correct that there is always a possible OTHER explanation why it is not Venice. But the amount of circumstantial evidence is such, that right now nothing short of them coming out and saying VENICE IS IN will make the pro-Venice argument stronger. As far as speculations go, this one cannot get any more likely save for a full confirmation.
PrimoXanthous
~ knightmare13 ~
Lets say Venice is the other European civ;
and the Capital would be Venice.
Question: then what would be its 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th . . 15th other City names????
Just asking. . .
and the Capital would be Venice.
Question: then what would be its 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th . . 15th other City names????
Just asking. . .
Lets say Venice is the other European civ;
and the Capital would be Venice.
Question: then what would be its 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th . . 15th other City names????
Just asking. . .
Search for cities in the Veneto, or for one of the earlier proper city lists. Just that region can give you 40 cities, and then you could add the overseas territories if you wanted.
JSMCAG
King
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Thanks!
Exactly what I was looking for...I was hoping that they took the colors from some other Civilization already in the game - not that I don't want Venice or am not convinced that Venice is in, but I would really really like for Venice to have a better color scheme.
Oh well, I guess I'll just mod it myself!
There was a Gold on Light Blue Venice Icon a few pages ago, and I think changing that file I quoted would be enough to make the border's colors change as well!That will mean no achievements, however...
Oh well - either that or I'll get used to it eventually... The issue as it stands is that no viable other options have been suggested. Everything that has been suggested to explain away Riga replacing Venice can be shown to not be something they do with other information about city states, and unless they really have just gone and done something completely out of character, something that we can't actually predict, then Riga is a replacement for Venice. In terms of the colour, unless someone can find an alternative source of those exact colours, and a source that it would make sense for them to have come across and thought "may as well use these colours", then the odds that they pick them by chance, even after deciding on Purple and Cream, is absolutely mind blowing, in the orders of 1 in hundreds of millions, although taking into account even the most generous error calculations, it's still thousands to one.
Anyhow, colours you say. Going through all the colours that are creamish, here is a table of the closet from current Civs (the number values are the sum difference from the RGB values):
As for the purple:
I am please about Venice, but the colour combination does seem odd from a purely design point of view.
It's one thing to say they are very different colours when you put them right next to each other with equal parts purple and yellow/cream. On the minimap it's only cities that appear in the secondary colour, and I have to admit, my first thought when I saw the screenshot that started this whole thing off was that the purple civ was Rome.
It'll just require a bit closer examination, that's all, but I think I'd say they were the two most similarly-coloured civs in game.
Edit: and you illustrate this, in my view, by showing that purple colour contrast bar. Egypt is to me clearly different, but now they are not adjacent, Venice and Rome look very similar.
It's one thing to say they are very different colours when you put them right next to each other with equal parts purple and yellow/cream. On the minimap it's only cities that appear in the secondary colour, and I have to admit, my first thought when I saw the screenshot that started this whole thing off was that the purple civ was Rome.
It'll just require a bit closer examination, that's all, but I think I'd say they were the two most similarly-coloured civs in game.
Edit: and you illustrate this, in my view, by showing that purple colour contrast bar. Egypt is to me clearly different, but now they are not adjacent, Venice and Rome look very similar.
JSMCAG
King
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The difference is comparable to England and Austria, Ethiopia and Barbarians
lol, Greece and Portugal... - Even with two colors, we are still getting confused about who is whom! But hey, it's still better than Civilization IV, where Purple could be France, Sumeria, India, Rome...
Lets say Venice is the other European civ;
and the Capital would be Venice.
Question: then what would be its 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th . . 15th other City names????
Just asking. . .
I'm a bit worried that they'll make Venice a single city Civ, I don't think they will, but it worries me. It's a bit like my concern for how they would do Australia if they ever did (and I hope they don't). As for an actual city list:
Venice
Verona
Padua
Vicenza
Udine
Friuli
Durazzo
Zara
Corfu
Pordenone
Bergamo
Rovigo
Cremona
Treviso
Chioggia
Bassano del Grappa
San Dona di Piave
Schio
Sacile
Codroipo
Tavagnacco
That's what... 20, and someone with a bit more research should be able to make a better, longer and properly ordered list. That said, with city lists such as the Celts' in Civ V in, I don't really think people should think too much about it.
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