What is the best UB?

[Antilogic]

All right, guess I'm alone on liking the odeon...

Could you imagine Horse Archers with Guerrilla I? That's what I call a unique unit.

Here's a great recipe for a UU: any mounted unit, can take advantage of defensive terrain, starts with Withdrawal I.

 

[Gwynnja]

Here's a great recipe for a UU: any mounted unit, can take advantage of defensive terrain, starts with Withdrawal I.

Conquistadors and Immortals can both take advantage of defensive terrain. Incidentally, they're both fantastic units. So are Keshiks, War Chariots, Cossacks, and Numidian Cavalry for that matter, although they don't get terrain bonuses. Really, the only mounted uniques I don't love are the knight replacements and the Khmer elephants. And the Khmer elephants are awesome, but only because they're elephants, not because of their lame unique bonus.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

All right, guess I'm alone on liking the odeon...



Here's a great recipe for a UU: any mounted unit, can take advantage of defensive terrain, starts with Withdrawal I.

I would put odeon at the low end of top 10.

 

[Fippy]

Altar would be more powerful if it came earlier, but who would go CoL for any of the early rushes? That imo makes it very overrated, happiness can be handled much easier when you already have techs like CoL.
And also, sometimes CHs are just not good buildings, if i have a compact empire and want Cuirs or whatever..i would not even build that thing in all my cities.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Altar would be more powerful if it came earlier, but who would go CoL for any of the early rushes? That imo makes it very overrated, happiness can be handled much easier when you already have techs like CoL.
And also, sometimes CHs are just not good buildings, if i have a compact empire and want Cuirs or whatever..i would not even build that thing in all my cities.

Regular CH def not in all cities. Chain whipping w/o penalty anywhere you put a discount CH (fewer than regular)? That's a different story entirely.

You wouldn't get it for the rush, but you could easily chain whip infra or game-ending units like cuirs or cavalry later, and at a higher rate than other civs. Also true if you skip the early rush, or continue one into the medieval.

 

[Fippy]

Still, if you have enough happiness sac. Altar might have no impact on some maps.
Later game Infra is usually limited by food as they get more expensive, not happy.

I don't think this beats an Ikhanda, Ger or Terrace.
Ger is also situational, but mounted are the best rush units in SP, so..2xp for all your units (and 3 promos total on Cuirs), or 50% whip anger less...well that's an easy decision for me.

 

[Gwynnja]

Something tells me I'm going to feel like an idiot for not knowing the answer to this but why 3 for Cuirs and not other mounted?

Still, if you have enough happiness sac. Altar might have no impact on some maps.
Later game Infra is usually limited by food as they get more expensive, not happy.

I don't think this beats an Ikhanda, Ger or Terrace.
Ger is also situational, but mounted are the best rush units in SP, so..2xp for all your units (and 3 promos total on Cuirs), or 50% whip anger less...well that's an easy decision for me.

 

[Fippy]

Just an example, later you have Theo + Vass + Ger + barracks = 11xp.
Not for Keshiks thou Also goes for Cavs, ofc.
Ger pushes Cuir breakouts towards Cha leaders, str. 3 vs. str. 2 when attacking initially (or str2 + shock) can make a huge difference in odds.

 

[Gwynnja]

Just an example, later you have Theo + Vass + Ger + barracks = 11xp.
Not for Keshiks thou Also goes for Cavs, ofc.
Ger pushes Cuir breakouts towards Cha leaders, str. 3 vs. str. 2 when attacking initially (or str2 + shock) can make a huge difference in odds.

I always forget about Vassalage! I might rather settle a GG in my bureau cap and one in HE, but I guess that's too late for Keshiks too.

 

[plasmacannon]

I had to go with the Sacrificial Altar on this vote.
It's flexibility is unmatched.
I like the terrace and odeon, neither are destroyed when captured in a city and instantly produce culture to reclaim new territory, but these do not have the prod advantage of the Sac Altar.
I do wish it came earlier, but I have even seen the AIs Oracle or LB CoL before, so it can be done.

 

[Peasley]

I had to go with the Sacrificial Altar on this vote.
It's flexibility is unmatched.
I like the terrace and odeon, neither are destroyed when captured in a city and instantly produce culture to reclaim new territory, but these do not have the prod advantage of the Sac Altar.
I do wish it came earlier, but I have even seen the AIs Oracle or LB CoL before, so it can be done.

My experience is on lower levels, but given that you start one tech from preisthood, Oracle to CoL seems very doable with Monty.

Should you win that gambit, you're about in time for a Jaguar rush, at least I would think.

 

[Iranon]

The starting techs are a liability - cheap and usually not economically useful.

 

[Jabarto]

All right, guess I'm alone on liking the odeon...



Here's a great recipe for a UU: any mounted unit, can take advantage of defensive terrain, starts with Withdrawal I.

I like Odeons a lot, I just think their bonuses are more of a "nice, but not necessary" sort of thing than something broadly useful like lower maintenance.

More topically, I haven't thought about this too much. I inclined to say Ikhandas, but I'll take it on face value when people say the Sacrificial Altar is better (I've never used it). Otherwise I quite like the Hammam and Ziggurat.

 

[barbertje]

I would put odeon at the low end of top 10.

The odeon always seems to be underrated. I might even put it at 1, if you play Pericles and you need early construction.

 

[Kallikrates]

I haven't played all the BTS civs (been too long on vanilla/warlords), so my fave is clearly the terrace. Next probably Ikhanda and Hammam (because I get screwed frequently by the map generator and lack sufficient happiness/health ressources).
I am still not very good/efficient at whipping, so I cannot appreciate the full power of the Altar.

A problem with some UUs like the Forum is IMO that the base building is not well designed. I think it is a major flaw that very often it is more efficient NOT to build buildings, because one could build wealth, fail gold etc. It might be my formative years of playing CivI/II for many hours, but a market that gives +50% and no possibility to build wealth (or only with 30-50% penalty or only after a market or bank has been built) is much closer to the "spirit" of the Civ games than fail gold explotation, "whipping wealth" or whatever.
So one could either boost the market (+50% or +1 trade route or + one happy face regardless of resources) or give penalties to fail gold and building wealth.
As much as I dislike it during the game, I also think that lack of health should be more serious. In older games one had to built aquaeducts or sewers to grow beyond a certain city size. Otherwise it would just stay at size 8 or 12. Now, with an expansive leader and a lucky map one can grow huge cities before the health issues of factory, power etc. kick in.

 

[drewisfat]

Voted Ikhanda. As far as maintenance wonders goes, Ikhanda is significantly better than the Rathouse, which is only a little better than the zig.

Which is best between Ikhanda, Terrace, and Sac Altar depends on if you're considering it void of the corresponding civ, UU and traits. Zulu are aggressive and have an early UU (even if not amazing). Aztecs aren't organized, and you wouldn't whip the UU, and Incans aren't expansive. Consider that an expansive civ can build a monument and then a granary in the same time the Incans can build a Terrace, and since the monument was built first its borders will pop a few turns earlier too.

Sac Altar is overrated because the thinking is slavery is the boss dog civic, and anything that helps it is really good. Fippy already mentioned some of the reasons it's overrated.
- Courthouses come after you would rush HAs, which is the most important "whipped" military unit.
- It also comes after whips on granaries, libraries, and courthouses!
- Courthouses aren't a great building for the early to mid-game. When not organized, it's rare that they're a better investment than building wealth (unlike barracks for agg players and granaries).
- Late game even if you're running slavery the main limitations aren't happiness but food (and competition from drafting)
- It helps mostly on high food starts -- games that are already easier.
- Overlaps with Globe Theater.

It's certainly good if your game demands a mid game push instead of lib race, but it has limited utility outside of that.

 

[pomthom]

Only bloke who voted Cothon

I know it is only situational and, in average, much weaker than an Altar or Terrace or others ; but with reasonable watery (non-isolated) maps + rushing the GLH (not always possible obviously) you simply get a very very comfortable and classy macro economy! [that and the FIN trait ]

Ok, ok that's a lot of "withs" but still, I like how the Cothon rolls

 

[TheMeInTeam]

- Courthouses come after you would rush HAs, which is the most important "whipped" military unit.

Cuirassers, Cavalry, Cannons are all 100% valid "whipped" military units. So are most medieval units, elephants, and catapults. With AGG Monty has some small bias against HA rushes anyway.

The reason the Sac Altar is good is that it's less to build, starts good, and stays good. Also, should you get kremlin, the bio farms + fast whip cycle means you can efficiently lollerwhip stuff like tactical nukes back-to-back and not even worry about the from the whipping. It's silly to say "nope...can't use it with HA...not as good!"

- It also comes after whips on granaries, libraries, and courthouses!

In most cities, you'd rush to whip the sac altar (which IS the courthouse) immediately after the granary. Only early, pre-CH cities would do the library first, and that's where you'd get your first great people. Such is true regardless of civ really; production cities aren't particularly intrested in ASAP library unless you're going for a very late game, since the actual beakers from it in non-, non GPP cities aren't very impressive.

Courthouses aren't a great building for the early to mid-game. When not organized, it's rare that they're a better investment than building wealth

But the altar requires fewer hammers, making it closer to ORG, and a direct production benefit in most cities, which CH do not.

Late game even if you're running slavery the main limitations aren't happiness but food (and competition from drafting)

If you whip at every opportunity from a city for 20 turns (not unreasonable in a war buildup), is in fact a limiting factor and you have to pay something to compensate. Not so with Sac Altar.

Drafting is legit competition, assuming you're going the rifle route.

Keep in mind of course that Sac. Altar whips also apply to buildings.

 

[Iranon]

Before reaching one's caps, food tiles and whipping beats regular production. Hammers invested do nothing, food invested gets you more citizens before you whip them. The same applies when producing something that gives happiness.

Some low-production cities are still worth founding (flood plains, any island city when controlling the Great Lighthouse). The ability to whip more makes them a lot stronger.

Most balanced cities still want to whip more than they can at their stable cap... at least if you're willing to put in the effort to micromanage them. The Sacrificial Altar is still a better than average UB in these, but it shows its true value elsewhere.

Lategame whipping is awesome. TMIT already mentioned post-Biology farms and the Kremlin, corp food makes this even sillier. Corps also favours junky filler cities whereever there's room, meaning low population sizes, meaning more efficient whips.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Ikhanda for me:
A cheap, simple, desirable, early and long-lasting build. Also, I like RExing.

Sac Altar is more powerful but massing them before an invasion does delay that invasion tremendously. I've never made the Altar work well as an early build. Later in the game, as has been mentioned, a high happy cap can obsolete the 50% anger. And as an early build, the maintenance part is useless. drewisfat mentions Drafting in relation with the Sac Altar... that's the right keyword, isn't it?

Terrace is also a contender. Ability to capture a culture producing building is very nice but, most of the time, superfluous. If Huayna was Expansive like Shaka is Agressive, then, yes, Terrace would be truly awesome. EDIT: now that I've thought about it... "a contender" is probably overselling it.


Another EDIT: now I've read the above comments. Late-game whipping. Aye, there probably are opportunities for the Altar to shine. I don't have much experience with those but Iranon and TMIT are trustworthy. Wouldn't change my vote, though.