What is the self?

[Traitorfish]

Possibly we are blundering because the body itself is blundering? Its form always uncertain, always contingent on the as-yet uncertain ability to uphold a certain mode of activity from one moment to the next. I mean, we can go about our business fairly sure that our liver isn't going to come exploding out of our chests so we can pretty safely forget about it, but a car requires us to continuously reach out into the world, and our control over it may break apart at any moment, so we don't feel comfortable accepting it so unconditionally as part of our body. (Perhaps this uncertainty is only introduced when we reflect on it, but given that reflecting on the reflection demands the initial reflection, that's probably not something we can escape.)

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Possibly we are blundering because the body itself is blundering? Its form always uncertain, always contingent on the as-yet uncertain ability to uphold a certain mode of activity from one moment to the next.

Body isnt blundering much- not even close as much as we are blundering in understanding of ourselves. Its processes are mainly subconsciouss even though very inteligent and thus are pretty certain and quite perfect. Problems seem to arise when there is need of consciouss activity on our part and with that comes uncertainty.

 

[Traitorfish]

How does being subconscious imply certainty, let alone perfection? My subconscious is convinced that spiders represent a greater bodily threat than speeding cars, which is, y'know, pretty dumb.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

How does being subconscious imply certainty, let alone perfection? My subconscious is convinced that spiders represent a greater bodily threat than speeding cars, which is, y'know, pretty dumb.

I was talking about subconscious physical not mental. Look at heart beat. Something one rarely thinks about although thorougly dependent on.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Its processes are mainly subconsciouss even though very inteligent and thus are pretty certain and quite perfect.

Why does very intelligent mean certain and perfect?

It would have to be god-like intelligence to be perfect. How do you know it's godlike and not more flawed and more barbaric than our consciousness?

 

[Traitorfish]

I was talking about subconscious physical not mental. Look at heart beat. Something one rarely thinks about although thorougly dependent on.

I had an irregular heartbeat when I was a little kid.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Why does very intelligent mean certain and perfect?

It would have to be god-like intelligence to be perfect. How do you know it's godlike and not more flawed and more barbaric than our consciousness?

Thats what I mentioned in previous post. With the rise of consciousness the perfection disappears. But we all feel that conscious is superior to unconscious. This apparent paradox points to inteligent design and some higher inteligence which exist on subconscious plane and which is not manifested consciously.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I had an irregular heartbeat when I was a little kid.

Still glad for you you do not have to control your heartbeat consciously...

 

[Traitorfish]

Still glad for you you do not have to control your heartbeat consciously...

Point was just because something is not done consciously does not mean that it is done perfectly.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Point was just because something is not done consciously does not mean that it is done perfectly.

No of course not I was pointing out to relative perfection of those subconscious processes.

 

[Traitorfish]

How can something be "relatively perfect"? Perfection is by definition absolute.

Anyway, I don't see what difference it makes. Certain parts of the body system are more tightly and more reliably integrated, so we don't have to worry about them; that's basically what I said. It only becomes relevant if you introduce some metaphysical distinction between the body, which causes the heart to beat, and the self, which drives a car, and this whole line of thought is premised on the rejection of this distinction.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Thats what I mentioned in previous post. With the rise of consciousness the perfection disappears.

Why does your assumed perfection disappear? What evidence do you have for this perfection?

But we all feel that conscious is superior to unconscious.

Indeed.

This apparent paradox points to inteligent design and some higher inteligence which exist on subconscious plane and which is not manifested consciously.

How does it point to intelligent design?

And only if you take your claims:

"are mainly subconsciouss even though very inteligent and thus are pretty certain and quite perfect"
"With the rise of consciousness the perfection disappears"
"This apparent paradox points to inteligent design and some higher inteligence"

as being valid without any further evidence. Which I don't. So for those 3 claims, what evidence is there to support them?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

How can something be "relatively perfect"? Perfection is by definition absolute.

I have look this up but it seems that you are not quite correct. However perfection is not the purpose of this thread so lets just skip this.

Anyway, I don't see what difference it makes. Certain parts of the body system are more tightly and more reliably integrated, so we don't have to worry about them; that's basically what I said. It only becomes relevant if you introduce some metaphysical distinction between the body, which causes the heart to beat, and the self, which drives a car, and this whole line of thought is premised on the rejection of this distinction.

Now we can perhaps agree on that but the question here is not if it is so? but why it is so? And why the superior consciousness is dependent on inferior subconscious? The practicality of it its clear. What I am trying to find out is the actual processes and functions of this design so I can more satisfactorily answer the OP: what is the self?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Why does your assumed perfection disappear?

It seems to me that this assumed perfection disappear only so that certain other things can be worked out. By plunging into kind of imperfection more opportunities may arrise in the future and with it greater perfection as well. Take for example instincts. It carries with them certain (perfection)capacity but only in limited form. Instincts enable the survival of species but cannot contribute to conscious development of the specie becouse it naturaly functions only on subconscious plane.

What evidence do you have for this perfection?

Observation. If the subconsciouss processes can be done repeatedly thousands and million times over and over again with minimum disruption under normal conditions thats something which at present capacity of conscious doesnt come even close. So in this respect you can observe greater perfection or better to say capacity in subconscious.

How does it point to intelligent design?

If I can observe/be aware of some great complexity and inteligent processes within my being which I cannot influence not to speak of control it forces me to admit that I am not the boss here...

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

You're aware that's basing assumption upon assumption upon assumption?

If I replied: "No it's not" it's just as well supported. This goes back to that other discussion we've been having.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Look if I dont know I am assuming. There is nothing wrong with that. If you know then tell us...

Edit: but I hope that you see that not all Ive written are assuptions.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Look if I dont know I am assuming. There is nothing wrong with that. If you know then tell us...

I might, but it does seem to me we speak different languages sometimes. Because I did so before.

And no, there's absolutely nothing wrong with assumptions. But it helps when one realises they are. If we even disagree on that I don't think there's enough common ground for us to occupy together to be in the same discussion and maybe I should refrain from replying to claims which are built on them.

I don't know.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I might, but it does seem to me we speak different languages sometimes. Because I did so before.

And no, there's absolutely nothing wrong with assumptions. But it helps when one realises they are. If we even disagree on that I don't think there's enough common ground for us to occupy together to be in the same discussion and maybe I should refrain from replying to claims which are built on them.

I don't know.

I know but we can work on that. Thx for now.

 

[Souron]

Is that true? From what I've read, it's far more blurred than this. We may not feel a car is part of us as precisely or effectively as we feel that our arm is part of us, but that doesn't tell us whether or not this experience is present.

When you lose a car, you don't feel like you still have a car. When you lose an arm, you do. There can be a strong feeling of control and connection to a car, but the sensation is not the same.

There are blurry things about identity, but I don't think the sensation of proprioception is all that blurry.

 

[gozpel]

I don't remember the writer, but he said: I am me!

And said further to others: You are you, now. (meaning that your idea of a person can change)

But the: I am me, can never change, you will always be "that me", no matter what you do in life, you can't change that me. It's there, it's born and matured. (except drugs can take that away)

Take a night off from everyone and listen to yourself, it doesn't go away, it talks and give you hopes/failures and it never stops.

That is YOU, inside your head telling you stuff.

Don't ask me about my guys on my shoulders, happy and nasty and logic is me. Nasty whispers do something bad, happy disagrees and logic needs to find a solution. Logic wins most of the time.

Just understand that YOUR brain is yours, and all thoughts and ideas from that is yours, but they can change only with medication/drugs/persuation, and you'll change too.

But the Inner self isn't that fragile, still a long running drug-abuse can shut it down or other abuse can make the brain to take different actions. I'm not talking about that.

A person without any abuse or conditions will always be ME, where you're brain is talking to you.

And I have a frigging chatter-box in my head everyday! But I do most things in life in a good way, thanks to that.