What is with the backlash against feminism?

Regionalisms can be fun.

If I misunderstood the comment, then I am about to be educated on regionalisms. I was trying to express an interest in seeing the discussion continue without descending into a flame war. If I remember correctly, the point was taken well and well taken and there were no hard feelings anywhere. What is the right way to address an issue like this on a forum where you only have words and smilies, and do not have a tone of voice to modify or body language?

You can choose to be offended or not be offended. You can choose to address the issue rather than the person. You can appeal to more noble values. Leave a gracious way out for the other person.

and feminists don't deserve to be compared to fascists.

This request was made several times. I do not know why I got on this person for expressing resentment over the label, "********," and how it equates feminists with the Nazis. It is merely name-calling.

How about, "A lot of us would appreciate it if you did not refer to feminists as '********s' in this discussion, especially since we are discussing why there is so much backlash against feminists in the first place.

There is no need to make a reference to atrocities. There is no need to take a condescending tone, like, "You can choose a different word. It's not that hard." It is really difficult to respond to this with, "I'm sorry." It is more likely to breed resistance and escalate the conflict. There is a magic word in the English language. It is "please."
 
When choosing a word to refer to some feminists, please consider a term from a place more mature than the schoolyard.
 
I had to remove someone from my facebook, just because he kept spouting off so much sexist garbage.

He considers himself a feminist, yet he seems rather extreme in the way he approaches gender-related issues. A lot of his posts seemed moderate, but those dealing with gender were at times loaded with bigotry and sexism.

I don't want to see that crap on my newsfeed, so I removed him. No big loss, I only ever really knew him from the 90s from the BBS art scene. So.. he did not really turn me off feminism or anything of the sort - but I could see how people like him could turn others off feminism.

So.. is there a "backlash against feminism"? I have no idea. But if there is, I bet it's people with extremist views like that that have helped make it happen. Both in the feminist camp and otherwise.
 
I had to remove someone from my facebook, just because he kept spouting off so much sexist garbage.

He considers himself a feminist, yet he seems rather extreme in the way he approaches gender-related issues. A lot of his posts seemed moderate, but those dealing with gender were at times loaded with bigotry and sexism.

I don't want to see that crap on my newsfeed, so I removed him. No big loss, I only ever really knew him from the 90s from the BBS art scene. So.. he did not really turn me off feminism or anything of the sort - but I could see how people like him could turn others off feminism.

So.. is there a "backlash against feminism"? I have no idea. But if there is, I bet it's people with extremist views like that that have helped make it happen. Both in the feminist camp and otherwise.
Well, what exactly was he saying?
 
Well, the only one here who's actually read Cixous is Caketasty, and he seems to have a pretty flimsy grasp on her ideas

heh. If only that were true.
 
@Phrossack, That females who report physical abuse need to be believed no matter what, he was trying to goad "Men's rights activists extremists" (I have no idea what to call them yet) into a fight by trying to push people's buttons, and I really forget what else. So much stuff was coming from him in my newsfeed that he literally must sit by a computer 24/7, posting heavily one sided stories every 20 minutes or so. The impression I got was that he has a lot of female feminist friends and was trying hard to "play his part", so that they would continue "understanding" that he is "on their side".

It all started when Jian Ghomeshi allegations came out. I hadn't heard much of it yet other than allegations from Jian and allegations from an ex-girlfriend of his. My position was "Let's wait until we hear some facts before picking up any pitchforks", but to him that was not an appropriate response. He had already made up his mind.

Looks like he was probably right, but that doesn't matter to me. Someone so blinded that they immediately side with one side of an issue even before they've heard the facts.. And even refusing to wait for the facts! I don't know what sort of stuff is going on in this guy's head, but I want my fb newsfeed to be interesting, not bigoted and sexist.

This guy is one of those heavily left-leaning activist types. I think it's all gone to his head and in the end unfortunately made him into a bit of an extremist. I prefer to be friends with moderates.
 
What I don't get, right, is that the backlash against feminism is as old as feminism. Arguably much older: The Monstrous Regiment of Women is from 1558, ferchrissake, when the closest thing to feminism was the claim that women should have any legal standing whatsoever. So why the conviction that the source of contemporary anti-feminist sentiment has to be found in feminism, and not in the equally-venerable tradition of anti-feminism? Do we really think fundies and MRAs and fratbros would be cheerfully reconciled to feminism if it wasn't for a few fringey wingnuts?
 
I bet that there are many reasons for the backlash, Traitorfish. I just wanted to share something that happened to me that might help explain a bit of it. I could see how the person who I am describing would drive more moderate people to the "uhh what's going on with feminism anyway?" camp.
 
What world do these more moderate people inhabit, that wingnuts are their only exposure to feminism? Unless they have voluntarily placed themselves inside a bubble of anti-feminist opinion, surely they must be aware that the overwhelming majority of feminists are not man-hating zealots?
 
Not sure that a lot of people running outside of academic circles really use that word to describe themselves though. My anecdotal experience leads me to believe that most of my non-coworkers will consider you a sexist pig if you oppose the goals of classical feminism, some disagreement over the tools may be had, but even the women don't necessarily call themselves feminists, just consider themselves decent people. The ones I know that work, live, and breathe a university environment almost always will identify with the feminist label. It might be that they get exposed to the theoretical underpinnings more, and that they care about those more. If you're out in private sector and raising your family your experience with the label is going to have a higher proportion of publicity stunts, feminist voices that are shrill enough to pierce the news bubble as a novelty, and disagreements over functional policies on the ground, not all of which they'll support.
 
I thought I might bring in a source right from the horse's mouth

http://www.avoiceformen.com/sexual-politics/m-g-t-o-w/feminist-gay-bashing/

This is an anti feminist website describing feminist bashing of gays as a reason why feminism, mainstream feminism is bad.

The most worrying quote is
“Men’s liberationists always bring up ‘confronting their own feelings about men’ by which they mean homosexuality. Male homosexuality is an extension of the reactionary club (meaning both group and weapon). The growth of gay liberation carries contempt for women to the ultimate: total segregation. The desire of men to ‘explore their homosexuality’ really means encouraging the possibility of homosexuality as a reaction against feminist demands. This is the reason the movement for “gay rights” received much more support only after women’s liberation became a mass movement.”

Because these are the exact words of a mainstream feminist- but this was back in the 60's so it is likely that the view espoused in this quote is no longer taken seriously by any mainstream feminist, and I notice that most of the feminism that this article deals with is 60's and 70's feminism.
 
I've read various man-hating books in my university English classes which certainly made me far more hostile than I was before. After that, the word 'feminism' doesn't ring well with me, although I know there are far more reasonable feminists than the ones I've read.

One common feminist argument (for example) is that men who are transgendered (have an operation to become a woman) maintain their 'male privilege'. What a bunch of BS. Transgendered people are some of the most discriminated people on the planet and are absolutely not 'privileged'. This is a belief of mine I'm absolutely not willing to compromise, for example and if that makes me incompatible with feminism, so be it.

But I'm hardly alone: Only 23 percent of american women and 16 percent of american men actually identify as feminist. On the other hand, "men and women should be social, political, and economic equals," 82 percent of the survey respondents said they did, and just 9 percent said they did not.
 
What world do these more moderate people inhabit, that wingnuts are their only exposure to feminism? Unless they have voluntarily placed themselves inside a bubble of anti-feminist opinion, surely they must be aware that the overwhelming majority of feminists are not man-hating zealots?

Me? I am not exposed to much feminism on a day to day basis, but neither do I think that any subsection of feminism, large or small, are man-hating zealots or anything similar.

I'm just pointing to an example of an extremist potentially turning away people from the movement. I thought that was clear!

Don't you get what I'm trying to say? I'm not saying that he made me personally turn away from the movement or think anything negative of it, but rather that I can see how others might be influenced in this way if they come across people like him.

You know what his problem is? He is trying to fight a "culture war". .. .. which apparently is going on right now between extremists on the feminist side and the men's rights side. He's probably hanging out on blogs all day and arguing with crazy people. But then problem is that all the moderate bystanders get pulled into this poo slinging, because we get grouped into the insanity by virtue of being men or women.
 
Is he fighting this culture war though? Or is he merely associating with like-minded people?

It's not likely that the extremists of each side have much to do with their opposite numbers, is it?
 
Culture warriors are idiots.

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edit: As a more serious note, I found Emma Watson's 'he for she' speech given at the UN to be very good, can't find a single thing she said there that I'd actually disagree with. I still don't like the word 'feminist'. 'gender/sex equality' is the term I prefer, and that's what her speech seemed to be all about.

For those that haven't seen it and are curious:

Spoiler :
 
What I don't get, right, is that the backlash against feminism is as old as feminism. Arguably much older: The Monstrous Regiment of Women is from 1558, ferchrissake, when the closest thing to feminism was the claim that women should have any legal standing whatsoever. So why the conviction that the source of contemporary anti-feminist sentiment has to be found in feminism, and not in the equally-venerable tradition of anti-feminism? Do we really think fundies and MRAs and fratbros would be cheerfully reconciled to feminism if it wasn't for a few fringey wingnuts?

Some of the fervor would die out if fuel wasn't readily applied.

surely they must be aware that the overwhelming majority of feminists are not man-hating zealots?
Should I go with the "don't call me Shirley" joke, or take this more seriously?

You know what his problem is? He is trying to fight a "culture war". .. .. which apparently is going on right now between extremists on the feminist side and the men's rights side. He's probably hanging out on blogs all day and arguing with crazy people. But then problem is that all the moderate bystanders get pulled into this poo slinging, because we get grouped into the insanity by virtue of being men or women.

Or by vice of supporting the wingnuts for "solidarity."
Because these are the exact words of a mainstream feminist- but this was back in the 60's so it is likely that the view espoused in this quote is no longer taken seriously by any mainstream feminist, and I notice that most of the feminism that this article deals with is 60's and 70's feminism.
It does highlight a temporal disconnect between different variations of feminists, does it not? Why not a more lateral variation?
 
I thought I might bring in a source right from the horse's mouth

http://www.avoiceformen.com/sexual-politics/m-g-t-o-w/feminist-gay-bashing/

This is an anti feminist website describing feminist bashing of gays as a reason why feminism, mainstream feminism is bad.

There is a problem in some of modern feminism, even non radfem, that it is too heteronormative.

One common feminist argument (for example) is that men who are transgendered (have an operation to become a woman) maintain their 'male privilege'. What a bunch of BS. Transgendered people are some of the most discriminated people on the planet and are absolutely not 'privileged'. This is a belief of mine I'm absolutely not willing to compromise, for example and if that makes me incompatible with feminism, so be it.
That's a very minority viewpoint that I think is associated with 2nd wave radical feminism. It's an interesting position when seeing how movements evolve but, fortunately, not one with much steam.
 
Where to start.

I think "ban bossy" is, overall, a positive message to put out there. It is, or at least ought to be, an attempt to make people more aware of the fact that uncompromising men are often respected for being uncompromising, but uncompromising women are demonized for it. "Bossy" is disproportionately applied to women in authority positions. I've had to reconcile my feminism with my anti-authoritarianism because I tend to mock and deride any authority figure, and have been told that I'm a sexist for mocking and deriding female authority figures. I can understand why some women might get a chip on their shoulder for this - I think the same thing happens to short men as well. When they get in a position of authority and aren't taken seriously, they assume it's because of their height, and it's hard to blame them for this assumption. They have no way of knowing that the person not taking them seriously doesn't take ANY authority figure seriously - and there are even people who CLAIM not to take any authority figure seriously, but in practice defer to some authority figures and not others, because some targets are just easier. These people are in fact being discriminatory in their practices but they might not notice it. I have been guilty of this. We are often blind to our own faults, and we are especially often blind to the ways in which we don't live up to our own moral standards.

I don't like the word "ban," because it sounds authoritarian, and I think that's a shame. I do think the trend of reducing complex social issues to a freaking hashtag that people either stand WITH or AGAINST is not a positive development and doesn't promote consciousness-raising among the people who are most ignorant of the issue. And I think that, from an anti-authoritarian perspective, it's important obviously to not automatically dismiss any criticism of female authority figures. So I don't exactly stand with "ban bossy." But I am closer to supporting it than I am to opposing it, even as an anti-authoritarian anarchist who is fundamentally against 'bosses.' Because I know that they are not REALLY trying to "ban" the word. No one is talking about actually punishing people who use the word. If anyone is I'm against that obviously.

What I would suggest is that if you get labeled a sexist for criticising a woman it's probably because you sound like one. Don't get defensive. Instead, try to work past the misunderstanding. Recognize that human beings instinctively categorize people and lump them together, and that we do this because it is useful more often than not. Demonstrate that you understand that some people DO exactly the thing you're accused of, and ask yourself if you haven't yet said anything to distinguish yourself from the legion of shitheads who say the same things you do. If your boss is a bossy woman, she has had to deal with sexist jerks her whole life. She doesn't have any reason to believe that you're not one of them if you start sounding like one. She may not be capable of understanding this either (because bossy people don't like admitting they are wrong). Recognize that you can't always change one person's mind or make them understand.

edit: It's also clear that there ARE some men who view gaming as a "male space" and believe that feminists want to destroy all "male space" while sanctifying and preserving female spaces. I can sympathize but as a somewhat gender-variant male who has always been deeply, deeply uncomfortable with "male space," I kind of want to blow the doors off the clubhouse. I don't like the way that 90% of my guy friends talk about women or talk to women, and most of these guys would think of themselves as anti-sexist.
 
Personally I think it's ironic that the same liberals saying women should enter authoritarian positions without being called bossy do just that to Margaret Thatcher and the like. "We like women, but only if they specifically agree with us."

I've found that most left-wingers are very hypocritical in this regard. "We want women/blacks/gays/etc" to find success, but only if they specifically also agree with our political motives. Free-thinkers are not allowed.

Although honestly I personally do not mind women in positions of authority in the least, and I personally haven't noticed women that are in positions of authority being called bossy. If this is going around a lot, somehow I'm missing it.
 
On the idea of being 'bossy', a leader who isn't secure in their position tends to lead badly. So if you get into a position of authority and assume that people aren't going to respect you, you'll probably give them good cause not to.
 
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