What is with the backlash against feminism?

[Phrossack]

Perhaps rather than refraining from calling any women bossy, we should start calling men bossy as well if their behavior meets the criteria. I don't think we should encourage anyone, women or men, to be arrogantly commanding.

 

[Flying Pig]

Certainly the adjectives used are different, which is a shame - if nothing else, it makes it harder to see what the actual problem is - but then we do have plenty of words that we use to describe male bosses we don't like, which are often equally unhelpful.

 

[Harv]

What is an "extremist", anyway?

Never really seen that defined.

There will be several definitions. Here I will take a stab at making up a few. None of these should be in dictionary.com.

1. Fanatical according to Winston Churchill's definition. Won't change mind. Can't change subject.
2. As above, beyond reasoning with them. They refuse to see the other point of view.

More importantly, in my opinion......
3. They view their opponents as enemies.

It's just a guess. Now let's see what dictionary.com says.....

Spoiler :

noun
1.a person who goes to extremes, especially in political matters.
2.a supporter or advocate of extreme doctrines or practices.

adjective
3.belonging or pertaining to extremists.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Although honestly I personally do not mind women in positions of authority in the least, and I personally haven't noticed women that are in positions of authority being called bossy. If this is going around a lot, somehow I'm missing it.

So what kinds of women* get called bossy? Well... it's either women* who are in positions of authority, or women* who are stridently outspoken and capable of asserting themselves, or probably most likely both. So... not only was this a campaign basically asking for the banning of words, but even if you do it the courtesy of assuming that wasn't meant to be taken literally, it's still a campaign asking for the MOST empowered women to be exempt from criticism. If this isn't putting the cart before the horse I don't know what is. It's also a campaign that thought this woman would make a really good poster girl:

This could well be the most ill-thought-out campaign ever.


* "women" can of course be replaced by "people" in all these cases, but who am I to argue this isn't a gendered issue.

 

[caketastydelish]

Mind putting the NSFW in a spoiler with a warning that says so? Thanks.

 

[Harv]

Some of us are dirty old men - too old to know what NSFW means. I had to look it up.

 

[RobAnybody]

This is so confusing. Should I listen to what a bunch of dudes on an internet gaming forum think, or should I listen to Fifth Harmony?


Link to video.

What would Michelle Obama think? I guess I'm with Fifth Harmony, to be honest. Although, to be fair, I'm probably gonna take Fifth Harmony over you bunch-o-dudes, on any subject.

 

[brennan]

Anti-feminists range from strong proponents of the status quo to right out there MRA nutjobs trying to roll back womens rights

Anti feminism is about trying to maintain a position that is opposed to certain ideas that are integral to many forms of feminism, such as challenging the notion that 'the Patriarchy' is a functional description of society or that we live in a 'rape culture'. Anti feminism tend to view these ideas as obviously faulty, for example: modern Western societies are in the main capitalist ones, effectively run by a small number of people for their own benefit. Not a 'patriarchy' in which 'men are the oppressors' of women; Rape is a criminal offence. A very severe one with a worse social stigma than murder.

The 'backlash' is what happens when those putting forward such views find they are described as 'woman hating MRAs' or as 'agents of the patriarchy' by feminists. The conversation at that point is hijacked by feminists (who have a very strong media and online presence) and converted into a discussion of misogyny. See GamerGate for a prime example.

 

[Hygro]

This is one of those moments I feel obliged to say that while I get frustrated when people mischaracterize Brennan's positions on this broader topic, I'm really not about to defend them either....

 

[Farm Boy]

Why not?

 

[Harv]

The 'backlash' is what happens when those putting forward such views find they are described as 'woman hating MRAs' or as 'agents of the patriarchy' by feminists. The conversation at that point is hijacked by feminists (who have a very strong media and online presence) and converted into a discussion of misogyny. See GamerGate for a prime example.

What I find most shocking about this thread how people neutral on the topic seem to own the discussion.

#27 Warpus on page 2:

Oftentimes with things like this it's extremists from one side flinging poo at extremists from the other, the moderates stuck in the middle wondering what the hell is going on.

#272 Caketastydelish on Page 14:

I've read various man-hating books in my university English classes which certainly made me far more hostile than I was before. After that, the word 'feminism' doesn't ring well with me, although I know there are far more reasonable feminists than the ones I've read.

. . . .

But I'm hardly alone: Only 23 percent of american women and 16 percent of american men actually identify as feminist. On the other hand, "men and women should be social, political, and economic equals," 82 percent of the survey respondents said they did, and just 9 percent said they did not.

 

[Rashiminos]

What I find most shocking about this thread how people neutral on the topic seem to own the discussion.

What are you suggesting?

 

[Senethro]

Anti feminism is about trying to maintain a position that is opposed to certain ideas that are integral to many forms of feminism, such as challenging the notion that 'the Patriarchy' is a functional description of society or that we live in a 'rape culture'. Anti feminism tend to view these ideas as obviously faulty, for example: modern Western societies are in the main capitalist ones, effectively run by a small number of people for their own benefit. Not a 'patriarchy' in which 'men are the oppressors' of women;

*shrug* I don't even know that anti feminism can even be called a coherent grouping of anything. Who is a mainstream/moderate self-described antifeminist thinker?

Also while economic class being a very strong (strongest?) predictor of where someone exists within society, it doesn't mean sexism doesn't exist.

Rape is a criminal offence. A very severe one with a worse social stigma than murder.

I'm not sure why you're mentioning rape here and I don't want to mischaracterise you. Whats your point?

The 'backlash' is what happens when those putting forward such views find they are described as 'woman hating MRAs' or as 'agents of the patriarchy' by feminists. The conversation at that point is hijacked by feminists (who have a very strong media and online presence) and converted into a discussion of misogyny. See GamerGate for a prime example.

I'm not sure anyone hijacked the Gamergate except misogynists who directed it to target women. A very strange example for you to bring up, surely its about ethics in journalism which should be neutral at the very least with regards to feminism. Unless you're saying that Gamergate was always anti-feminist (and a glance at /pol/ indicates some people thought it was always about highlighting cultural marxism in games reviews) and feminists have unfairly characterized this anti-feminism as misogyny.

 

[Commodore]

I'm not sure why you're mentioning rape here and I don't want to mischaracterise you. Whats your point?

My assumption would be he is offering that as a counter to the assertion that we live in a 'rape culture'. The logic, of course, being: how can one say we live in a rape culture when our society not only has made rape a criminal offense, but have also assigned a stigma to rape that portrays it as being a worse crime than murder?

 

[brennan]

while economic class being a very strong (strongest?) predictor of where someone exists within society, it doesn't mean sexism doesn't exist.

So...what... sexism exists therefore patriarchy? That's meaningless.

I'm not sure why you're mentioning rape here and I don't want to mischaracterise you. Whats your point?

It's real easy to understand, as another poster has pointed out.

I'm not sure anyone hijacked the Gamergate except misogynists who directed it to target women.

We've been over this. There was no 'GamerGate' until the issue was hijacked and blown out of all proportion by feminists. Until then it was just another example of games journos getting too cozy with the developers.

This is about double standards and special pleading:

Doritogate: no women involved, no misogyny angle.
The Phil Fish debacle? No women involved, no misogyny angle.
Roger Ebert criticises games (and gets a hell of a lot of abuse)... no one cares.
Someone makes a 'punch Jack Thompson in the face' game...no one bats an eyelid.

Target a woman for exactly the same reasons using exactly the same methods? Misogyny. Gamers have a problem with women.

It's fatuous.

 

[Senethro]

So...what... sexism exists therefore patriarchy? That's meaningless.

As opposed to rich people exist therefore patriarchy doesn't?

It's real easy to understand, as another poster has pointed out.

I thought that was what you meant but I wasn't sure because its obviously wrong. Punishment doesn't mean the crime somehow never existed and the low conviction rate and reporting rate indicates problems in the system. Theres even problems in investigation hence Rotherham.

We've been over this. There was no 'GamerGate' until the issue was hijacked and blown out of all proportion by feminists. Until then it was just another example of games journos getting too cozy with the developers.

Nah. It began with a crazy ex seeking revenge. The misogyny was there right from the start.

This is about double standards and special pleading:

Doritogate: no women involved, no misogyny angle.
The Phil Fish debacle? No women involved, no misogyny angle.
Roger Ebert criticises games (and gets a hell of a lot of abuse)... no one cares.
Someone makes a 'punch Jack Thompson in the face' game...no one bats an eyelid.

Target a woman for exactly the same reasons using exactly the same methods? Misogyny. Gamers have a problem with women.

The methods being objected to are the harassment, stalking and threats of shooting sprees.

 

[Light Cleric]

This is about double standards and special pleading:

Doritogate: no women involved, no misogyny angle.
The Phil Fish debacle? No women involved, no misogyny angle.
Roger Ebert criticises games (and gets a hell of a lot of abuse)... no one cares.
Someone makes a 'punch Jack Thompson in the face' game...no one bats an eyelid.

Target a woman for exactly the same reasons using exactly the same methods? Misogyny. Gamers have a problem with women.

It's fatuous.

The fact that the allegations against her are entirely baseless and unproven is what distinguishes this from those cases. Like we can say Phil Fish sucks ass from a straw because he made a fool of himself on Twitter multiple times and keeps making new accounts after ragequitting.

The allegations here were supposed to show a woman using sex as a way to get men to give her favorable coverage for a game. There is zero evidence that it happened. If it HAD happened there would be a legitimate case about journalist ethics, but it didn't and that discussion went out the window a long time ago. It goes without saying that the shooting threats etc. are the work of miserable little insecure men and they're just too stupid to care if the allegations were are true or not.

 

[brennan]

As opposed to rich people exist therefore patriarchy doesn't?

Yeah, you should re-read what you posted and what I replied to, because you seemed to shift it away from that line of reasoning yourself.

Punishment doesn't mean the crime somehow never existed

Eh?

Nah. It began with a crazy ex seeking revenge. The misogyny was there right from the start.

Crazy exes seek revenge all the time. There's nothing misogynistic about crazy exes seeking revenge because both sexes do it. Again we see here the thread of 'it it happens to a woman it's sexism'.

The methods being objected to are the harassment, stalking and threats of shooting sprees.

Jack Thompson, Phil Fish, Roger Ebert. Loads of men get abuse and death threats, what exactly makes it magically sexism just because the target is a woman? I must ask again if the abuse of Judy Finnegan and her Daughter (almost certainly by feminists) were misogyny and sexism?

The fact that the allegations against her are entirely baseless and unproven is what distinguishes this from those cases.

Seriously? No-one ever mentioned misogyny then?

 

[Smote]

Target a woman...using exactly the same methods?

The methods have not been the same. Though most GamerGaters are merely guilty of inciting a horde of internet trolls against individuals (a despicable act in itself), these trolls have been very misogynistic. However, in the public eye, these trolls represent the entire movement, which is justified because the movement spawned them and encouraged them.

What I would suggest is that if you get labeled a sexist for criticising a woman it's probably because you sound like one... ask yourself if you haven't yet said anything to distinguish yourself from the legion of shitheads who say the same things you do

As crabe pointed out for the reason for the label of "sexist," GamerGate has not sufficiently made reparations for the damage it has done to individual women in order to get a free pass. This movement has caused a bunch of people to fear for their lives, and women in particular have had to fear more than men. It has had a disproportionately negative effect on women, regardless of the "non-sexist media reform" intentions of supporters.

It's true that outspoken women playing the sexism card have received a disproportionate amount of attention in the media. This is because many people care about the issue of sexism, while not many people care about the issue of "ethics of gamer journalism." It's really just a matter of news-worthiness.

 

[crabe]

Jack Thompson, Phil Fish, Roger Ebert. Loads of men get abuse and death threats, what exactly makes it magically sexism just because the target is a woman? I must ask again if the abuse of Judy Finnegan and her Daughter (almost certainly by feminists) were misogyny and sexism?

Jack Thompson at least is a man known for trying to bring the power of the state, via harassment and frivolous lawsuits, to bear against not only video games but whatever he finds obscene. This is called barratry and the other people being discussed don't really belong in the same category.