What is with the backlash against feminism?

[Commodore]

I've noticed certain posters using terms like ******** and the like. Why is the feminist movement being vilified here? Is it really just some misogynistic jerks unhappy about the changing times, or are there legitimate grounds upon which to criticize/be unhappy with the movement?

I won't profess to speak for anyone else on this forum, but I oppose some of the more extremist elements of the feminist movement. Overall, things are (slowly, I'll admit) getting better for women, but it just seems like that is not good enough for some of the more vocal feminists out there. It seems the more freedom and equality women achieve, the louder these extremists scream about how oppressed they are.

When it comes to the more moderate feminists, I fully support everything they stand for.

 

[Old Hippy]

I won't profess to speak for anyone else on this forum, but I oppose some of the more extremist elements of the feminist movement. Overall, things are (slowly, I'll admit) getting better for women, but it just seems like that is not good enough for some of the more vocal feminists out there. It seems the more freedom and equality women achieve, the louder these extremists scream about how oppressed they are.

When it comes to the more moderate feminists, I fully support everything they stand for.

does the fact that things are slowly getting better, not account for feminists actually getting more vocal, they can almost see the finishing line but are told they must wait, be quite, and be more like the moderate feminist which seems to mean not making waves when things are not better, but slowly getting better. it would seem to imply that there are good reasons to quitely wait, not make a fuss because change is coming. I can not think of any though...

 

[Commodore]

does the fact that things are slowly getting better, not account for feminists actually getting more vocal, they can almost see the finishing line but are told they must wait, be quite, and be more like the moderate feminist which seems to mean not making waves when things are not better, but slowly getting better. it would seem to imply that there are good reasons to quitely wait, not make a fuss because change is coming. I can not think of any though...

The problem though is that the extremists in the feminist movement act like nothing has changed at all for women. To hear them tell it, you would think women have gained nothing at all in the 100 years (give or take a few years) of the feminist movement. The moderates recognize there are still problems that need to be solved, but they also recognize the massive gains women have made and realize there is in fact a positive trend in society in regards to women's rights.

It is that refusal to accept the positive gains women have made so they can continue to play the oppressed victim act that really drives me to oppose the extremists in the feminist movement.

 

[Old Hippy]

The problem though is that the extremists in the feminist movement act like nothing has changed at all for women. To hear them tell it, you would think women have gained nothing at all in the 100 years (give or take a few years) of the feminist movement. The moderates recognize there are still problems that need to be solved, but they also recognize the massive gains women have made and realize there is in fact a positive trend in society in regards to women's rights.

It is that refusal to accept the positive gains women have made so they can continue to play the oppressed victim act that really drives me to oppose the extremists in the feminist movement.

so 100 years and lots of gains and feminists recognize that there are still problems to be solved, and if they just stop making waves the remaining problems will be solved, for reasons

But I don't think even vocal activist feminists refuse to accept the gains they have... they embrace them and use them, they don't care that you are infuriated, and shouldn't, because the one thing you have in common with extremist feminists is the acknowledgment that ther are still things to do...
they are just not playing by your rules.

 

[Mise]

I just don't see many feminists protesting about the recent death of Reyhaneh Jabbari, who died because she dared to defend herself during an attempted rape and killed the man responsible, nor of the thousands of women imprisoned n Muslim countries for "moral crimes". But they protest a lot about thing here and have slut marches.

I do. Perhaps you aren't hanging around enough feminists?

Yeah, what the hell? I've seen loads of feminists do that, they talk about it all the time. My twitter feed was full of feminists (and Muslim leftists, for that matter) talking about Jabbari.

 

[Hygro]

Reminds me of a recent article about a reformed conservative who mentioned in his conservative days, he would be frustrated that liberals would complain but never offer solutions. Then he found out it turned out the liberals had been offering solutions the entire time, his conservative news bubble just didn't report them.

 

[useless]

Guys you're making the mistake of assuming that anything C_H says about feminism is grounded in reality; he is attacking straw feminists, what he presumes feminists to be, reality doesn't enter into the equation.

 

[metatron]

Yeah, what the hell? I've seen loads of feminists do that, they talk about it all the time. My twitter feed was full of feminists (and Muslim leftists, for that matter) talking about Jabbari.

Maybe CH doesn't have tiwitter and maybe feminists in Perth don't roll like that. What do we know?

The feminists i "hang around" with usually don't refer to women as "babes".
The feminists i "hang around" with don't defend the inherent sexism of contemporary sports culture and (most) organised religion to satisfy their "tolerance" fetish and then go for all out strawman olympics every time the inevitable happens and they have to escape their intellectual dishonesty.
The feminists i "hang around" with don't sound an awful lot like entitled prude early 20th century moralists.

etc.

 

[Hygro]

Theres a trick to being able to call bodacious babes "babes" and not be committing femicide.


Rumor tells us it involves the careful use of the word wench on the second full moon of the third new year of the Age of Sagittarius.

 

[Mise]

EDIT: nvm

 

[Terxpahseyton]

My issue with feminism can be distilled into my experience with how the wage gab was handled on German TV news.
There, time after time, the wage gap between women and men was decried. And I was thinking to myself 'How can this be? How is this possible'? It seemed out of this world. I did not understand.
With such questions in my head, I came across some explanations, with the gist that the wage gap was more or less a case of not being able to properly use statics. Attention! I don't want to deny the existence of merely sex-based wage discrimination, over time I learned more and I think it is happening - but the point is, those statistics cited over and over on the news were still utmost dubious if not out-right silly. At least in the way they were presented.
And what I took from this was the impression that feminism had become such a case of the political correct agenda to have, that it sorta took on a life of its own, propelled forward by a momentum which was a force in itself, a case of it is good because, hello it pretty much definition is, a case of not to be trusted.

And since then I do not perceive feminism as a mere case of fighting against undue discrimination. But as something that is foremost en vogue, popular, and then, after that, the actual case. Something which causes people to loose some perspective and due consideration of alternative points of views or interpretations.

Another example is a segment by John Oliver. There he compares a very small wage gap to a very small pile of crap one just did on ones desk. Meaning - any gap of whatever size is unacceptable.
That is IMO a case of all the things I just listed. It is not even considered that there could be a due difference, according to accepted usual job market mechanisms. It just has to be exactly equal.

Now that is just the angle which is important to me. But I am sure things like feeling threatened by women etc also play into this, on some level.
I do suspect that there is also a part of the male brain that naturally finds it more easier to accept male authority.
Also, I think that some males may simply prefer the different climate of a male-dominated business.

 

[Smote]

My issue with feminism can be distilled into my experience with how the wage gab was handled on German TV news.
...

but the point is, those statistics cited over and over on the news were still utmost dubious if not out-right silly. At least in the way they were presented.
...
Another example is a segment by John Oliver. There he compares a very small wage gap to a very small pile of crap one just did on ones desk. Meaning - any gap of whatever size is unacceptable.

...

Now that is just the angle which is important to me. But I am sure things like feeling threatened by women etc also play into this, on some level.
I do suspect that there is also a part of the male brain that naturally finds it more easier to accept male authority.
Also, I think that some males may simply prefer the different climate of a male-dominated business.

I agree with you on the point of the media's representation of statistics. The media over-sensationalizes and misrepresents statistics quite frequently. But women getting paid 23% less than men in the same jobs- or men getting paid 30% more than women (whichever way you want to look at it), does not seem like a small issue. 12% doesn't either. These may seem like small numbers, but they represent a lot of money. It doesn't have to be exactly equal, but it should be <5%.

I think that highlighting the issue of pay gap is good for society, however. As long as this issue remains, we need to strive to change it, and talking about it frequently will help achieve that.

Consider the effect that the popular issue of pay gap has to protect an individual woman's rights. Assume her boss is a mysogenist and wants to unfairly cut her pay. Because this issue is popular, she can get the press on her side, and the boss will be likely to lose his job because the company doesn't want the negative PR. Thus, she is protected by the threat of negative public opinion, and the boss will hopefully increase her pay enough so that he doesn't look bad, despite inwardly feeling that she doesn't deserve it. Additionally, he has to worry about laws against unfair discrimination.

I agree with your speculation in regards to the male brain, though I have not read research on it. I also suspect societal influences in this realm are much stronger than biological influences.

 

[NovaKart]

I think the issue was that the 30-23% paygap was the result of faulty statistics. I think it would be difficult to enforce an equal pay law because there are so many other factors that could be involved besides gender. There's length of employment, experience, salary negotiation, performance. A group of employees is rarely going to be entirely equal.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Consider the effect that the popular issue of pay gap has to protect an individual woman's rights. Assume her boss is a mysogenist and wants to unfairly cut her pay. Because this issue is popular, she can get the press on her side, and the boss will be likely to lose his job because the company doesn't want the negative PR. Thus, she is protected by the threat of negative public opinion, and the boss will hopefully increase her pay enough so that he doesn't look bad, despite inwardly feeling that she doesn't deserve it. Additionally, he has to worry about laws against unfair discrimination.

Now consider the similar situation with a boss who ISN'T a misogynist, and wants to FAIRLY cut her pay. Then the rest of the anecdote pans out the same. In fact didn't we have an example in a recent thread that was pretty much exactly that situation (although it was about a promotion not a pay cut)? It's all a bit of a double-edged sword really.

 

[Old Hippy]

Theres a trick to being able to call bodacious babes "babes" and not be committing femicide.


Rumor tells us it involves the careful use of the word wench on the second full moon of the third new year of the Age of Sagittarius.

when ever I get into trouble with feminists I know, it happens a lot, I just say " but thats why you love me", and give them my innocent naive smile, so far I have not been castrated and remain on their invite list...

 

[Smote]

Now consider the similar situation with a boss who ISN'T a misogynist, and wants to FAIRLY cut her pay. Then the rest of the anecdote pans out the same. In fact didn't we have an example in a recent thread that was pretty much exactly that situation (although it was about a promotion not a pay cut)? It's all a bit of a double-edged sword really.

That's a good point. I'm personally biased towards the woman's side, because I've heard about/seen more cases of misogyny than manipulative women playing the system. This capability is an issue though, with room for abuse.

 

[Hygro]

My issue with feminism can be distilled into my experience with how the wage gab was handled on German TV news.
There, time after time, the wage gap between women and men was decried. And I was thinking to myself 'How can this be? How is this possible'? It seemed out of this world. I did not understand.
With such questions in my head, I came across some explanations, with the gist that the wage gap was more or less a case of not being able to properly use statics. Attention! I don't want to deny the existence of merely sex-based wage discrimination, over time I learned more and I think it is happening - but the point is, those statistics cited over and over on the news were still utmost dubious if not out-right silly. At least in the way they were presented.
And what I took from this was the impression that feminism had become such a case of the political correct agenda to have, that it sorta took on a life of its own, propelled forward by a momentum which was a force in itself, a case of it is good because, hello it pretty much definition is, a case of not to be trusted.

And since then I do not perceive feminism as a mere case of fighting against undue discrimination. But as something that is foremost en vogue, popular, and then, after that, the actual case. Something which causes people to loose some perspective and due consideration of alternative points of views or interpretations.

Another example is a segment by John Oliver. There he compares a very small wage gap to a very small pile of crap one just did on ones desk. Meaning - any gap of whatever size is unacceptable.
That is IMO a case of all the things I just listed. It is not even considered that there could be a due difference, according to accepted usual job market mechanisms. It just has to be exactly equal.

Now that is just the angle which is important to me. But I am sure things like feeling threatened by women etc also play into this, on some level.
I do suspect that there is also a part of the male brain that naturally finds it more easier to accept male authority.
Also, I think that some males may simply prefer the different climate of a male-dominated business.

There's an expression, "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater", that I feel pertains to this.

 

[caketastydelish]

What I don't understand, with feminism, is why it's acceptable to bring up the weirdo fringe-groups first, and only then acknowledge that not some feminists are not weirdo fringers, as if the latter group are the exception rather than the overwhelming majority. People don't tend to do that with any other mainstream political tradition, like liberalism or nationalism, and if they do, they're very quickly called on it. But in this case, nary a peep is heard on the matter.

(I mean, I do understand. I'm not stupid. But rhetorical convention demands that I play dumb.)

The person I quoted could easily be considered mainstream. I read it for a university class for Christ sake.

 

[Arwon]

I think a reason why feminism is losing steam in the west is because it seems all the major battles have been won. Now if there is systematic oppression it is subtlety hidden and discrimination based on gender is mostly practiced on an individual basis and can be prosecuted. As such people are feeling resentful of the existence of the feminist movement because it seems they are making a big deal out of minor things.

What makes you think "feminism is losing steam in the west"?

 

[Borachio]

Could it be because feminism has won most of the easy battles in the West? And now it's reached a plateau. An irresistible glass ceiling, perhaps?

As long as child-rearing women don't have financial independence from men, they're always going to be in a second-class position, aren't they? A kind of systemic inequality.

Even given financial independence, they'll still struggle to maintain a career in view of taking even 1 or 2 years out of employment for the task having a child. And employers will always question the loyalty of a woman with children in comparison with a man, won't they? Isn't that just the way things are; without some radical change in human society?

Or do I have this wrong?