What it means to be English

[Borachio]

How many nations do you know that are like England? How many peoples are there like the English?

We are a slave nation and always have been.

It is not easy to decide when the nation of England began, and better heads than mine can give a more accurate picture of it. Suppose we start, for the sake of discussion - though if you like you can go further back but then the definition becomes more vague - at 1066, when we were first enslaved by the Norman French and assimilated Borg-like into their empire (for at least two generations they refused to speak our language at all and even now many of the most important institutions still use elements of French - we thus became effectively a bi-lingual nation and strangely ever since we have had a reputation for being unable to learn foreign languages: you will appreciate, I hope, our reluctance).

These were succeeded by the Plantagenets and blah de blah de blah (I am no historian) we were subsequently acquired by the Welsh Tudors - how or why I am clueless.

When Elizabeth 1 finally decided to croak it on account of her strange skin colour and black teeth, she bequeathed us in her will to the Jacobites those oh so friendly Scottish lads. James VI decided to come south leaving his beloved country (so beloved in fact that he never returned there), changed his name to James 1 of England V1 of Scotland.

Please don't mistake me, I think Scotland is an excellent nation which has contributed much to world culture.

I really am a bit hazy about how the Stuarts acquired us but they, I believe, were still Scottish - with French tendencies. (The point I am trying to make is that we are and have always been an enslaved people. This is not a joke. We are not citizens here. We are subjects. Australians realise how lucky they are to have escaped being Prisoners of Her/His Majesty. (Strangely they ridicule us for it. Should we, my fellow countrymen, rise up?)

We did very briefly free ourselves following the debacle of three, yes that's right three, civil wars. (though I think we, the English, did not actually begin any of them).

But of course, being English, our slave nature won out and we begged our former oppressor's son to rule over us once more. This was a mistake.

Following which the Dutch decided they wanted a piece of us. For such a despised nation we seem to be oddly popular. But we had acquired a new very strange androgynous monarch in WilliamMary or was it MaryWilliam? Let us not forget the Battle of the Boyne. The Irish will not let us. Were we to blame? I don't know.

Things took a new turn when the Hanoverians stepped in, naturally forcing us to speak our own language in a new way - robbing us of a substantial appreciation of the supreme Bard; and basically we have been at the mercy of the Germans ever since.

I don't mean to seem whiny. But is this fair? Is it fair that we cannot display our national flag without being accused of rabid something or other? How many other nations are supposed to display shame about their national flag? Our patron saint is Saint George. Who was Turkish.

The Welsh, Irish, and Scottish peoples' attitude towards us is at best ambivalent.

The French can best tell you themselves. But phrases like perfidious Albion never seem far away.

The Germans, at one time seemed to admire us. But who can say?

Our American cousins' attitude is understandably mistrustful. But wasn't their experience largely due to the handling of the situation by our German overlords?

I await your sober assessment of our predicament. This is very nearly 1000 years of enslavement. Whom do I sue?

 

[Arwon]

This contains very strange use of the words "we", "our" and "us"

 

[Borachio]

How so?

 

[Ayn Rand]

Borachio, what country are you from originally?

None of us in England believe we've been enslaved for a thousand years. Where did you pick this theme up from?

Our foreign relations - with France, Germany and the USA - are also way more complex than the shallow treatment you've given them deserves.


Why did you start this thread? Are you thinking of applying for citizenship here or something?

 

[Borachio]

I am English. As far as I know all my ancestors have been English. I have no other country to go to. Please explain what you wish me to do. Will you contact the moderators, please, if you have any doubts about the legitimacy of this thread? It is my intention to stimulate debate on the nature of nationhood and national pride. If you think this thread will not achieve this or that any such debate might be in any way harmful or offensive to any members at all on the forum please do not hesitate to recommend that it should be deleted. I await your sober assessment. I realise the treatment is shallow. I can only present the case in a very broad way based on my experience and limited knowledge. I repeat that I am no historian, nor am I a political scientist or in any way politically active. Can you please elucidate further on your problems with this thread?

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

Obligatory lack of sporting prowess reference (in anticipation of obligatory holding of
Ashes retort).

Borachio....don't stress so much about copping some knocks for an OP . It's all in good fun and you're clearly a nice guy . Most people here are too and the vast majority of criticism is in the spirit of advancement of knowledge .

 

[Ayn Rand]

I am English. As far as I know all my ancestors have been English. I have no other country to go to. Please explain what you wish me to do. Will you contact the moderators, please, if you have any doubts about the legitimacy of this thread? It is my intention to stimulate debate on the nature of nationhood and national pride. If you think this thread will not achieve this or that any such debate might be in any way harmful or offensive to any members at all on the forum please do not hesitate to recommend that it should be deleted. I await your sober assessment. I realise the treatment is shallow. I can only present the case in a very broad way based on my experience and limited knowledge. I repeat that I am no historian, nor am I a political scientist or in any way politically active. Can you please elucidate further on your problems with this thread?

I don't have any problem with the thread, you've said nothing wrong.

 

[Borachio]

Do you think it is, broadly speaking, accurate historically?

 

[Ayn Rand]

Do you think it is, broadly speaking, accurate historically?

Not in the slightest. You have a lot more reading to do

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

I don't have any problem with the thread, you've said nothing wrong.

Do you think it is, broadly speaking, accurate historically?

Not in the slightest. You have a lot more reading to do

Now THAT'S what it means to be English

 

[Ayn Rand]

Now THAT'S what it means to be English

So true

 

[Borachio]

Can you please indicate exactly where the inaccuracies lie?

 

[Ayn Rand]

Can you please indicate exactly where the inaccuracies lie?

It's difficult to take a thousand years of complex history and reduce it to one theme [we were/are enslaved].

As a small example - you haven't noted our repeated invasions of Wales, Scotland and Ireland, our attempts to subjugate them, to control them and to colonise them. Much of the Welsh population is descended from English colonists [it is quite laughable that they call themselves Welsh].

Then there are our repeated wars and interference in European affairs. And our Empire, our involvement in the slave trade, our colonisations abroad. It just so happens that in the last thousand years, quite a few people were enslaved because of England.

Also, some of the wars and political revolutions you were alluding to had way more complex causes and outcomes than the very simple thematic treatment you gave them. Often they were fought for trade, power-politics or dynastic succession rather than any clear national motive or along clear ethnic/cultural lines.

 

[Borachio]

I disagree. It seems unfair to blame the slave for the actions of his enslaver.

 

[Ayn Rand]

I disagree. It seems unfair to blame the slave for the actions of his enslaver.

Who is the enslaver?

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Who is the enslaver?

The government.

 

[gangleri2001]

I dunno, this thread sounds like "let's write random stuff" to me. But hey, if you're enslaved, that's OK with me. You treasoned your Catalan allies in 1714, so if you're "enslaved" now that's ok with me. BTW, if you want to know what being really means, you better study the last 300 years of Catalonia's history.

 

[Leoreth]

You seem to view dynastic history through anachronistically nationalist glasses.

The Germans, at one time seemed to admire us. But who can say?

In many ways, from a German perspective, the English seem to be the neighbor that's most similar to them, mentality-wise. Apparently the English themselves are not very fond of this notion, though.

 

[useless]

Why are you suprised at all by the resentment from the Irish, the Welsh, the Scottish, all of whom the English have wronged, slighted, punished and generally left worse off, through out their rule?

Do you understand that there are legitimate grievences, especially in Northern Ireland?

 

[Borachio]

I dunno, this thread sounds like "let's write random stuff" to me. But hey, if you're enslaved, that's OK with me. You treasoned your Catalan allies in 1714, so if you're "enslaved" now that's ok with me. BTW, if you want to know what being really means, you better study the last 300 years of Catalonia's history.

I apologise on behalf of my masters for their treason. In comparison with 1000 yrs, I humbly beg to suggest that 300 yrs is scarcely 1/3 of the time.

You seem to view dynastic history through anachronistically nationalist glasses.


In many ways, from a German perspective, the English seem to be the neighbor that's most similar to them, mentality-wise. Apparently the English themselves are not very fond of this notion, though.

I agree. There has been an article about Hess recently, in which he was interviewed extensively by British (they may have been English, but I don't know this) psychologists.

I myself am fond of the Germans.

You can tell the extent of our conditioning, that many of my fellow countrymen seem to be astounded when I suggest we are a slave nation.

I think you can see my central point. And it is this which I want to be addressed.

No matter that our conditions now are not intolerable for us as individuals, the fact remains that we are a subject people. It says so on our passports.

It could be argued that this is a feudal remnant. But I could more easily accept being part of a monarchy if our monarch had in fact ever been English. I beg to suggest that none of them has been.

The Germans at the moment are proud citizens of their own federal republic. The French too are free citizens. Why aren't the English? Largely I suspect because we are a docile enough people who have accepted their slavery.

I accept that I am of course overstating the reality to absurdity. But it is the principle I would like you to address, please.

(It is true too that Englishmen have inflicted great cruelty on other peoples, and also on each other - but I would suggest that this is always the case with enslavement. The use of overseers and kapos seems to be part of the mechanism of enslavement.)

@useless I mostly certainly appreciate your sense of grievance. You have been most notoriously misused over the last 1000 yrs. But, I humbly beg to suggest, that it was not the English people themselves who did this to you, though you certainly blame us for it. After the Norman Conquest of England, the lesser knights who had not been granted English soil to live on, banded together with a lot of Welsh not English to invade Ireland. This they made a complete hash of. The first rule of conquest is to not leave your opponent undefeated, which they notably failed to do. I of course can only suggest the brief outline that I remember from a book written by some Irish historians. The Battle of the Boyne too was due to the Dutch, rather than the English. The battle of Culoden featured a great many Hanoverian troops. Though of course the English as usual had been co-opted into it.