What makes a great RPG?

[Timsup2nothin]

Morrowind, iirc, handled the level-scaling problem fairly well: some things leveled, some things didn't. There really were dungeons you couldn't go into in the start. There really were beasts that just became a breeze once you became strong. But other things leveled, so you got generally got a challenge to where you were at a specific moment.

For me, the cool solution to this would be to have certain planned evolutions in the world. When the character is levels 1-10, a dungeon contains rats. When the character hits level 11, a set of bandits clear out that cave of rats and set up their own camp there. When the character hits level 25, a dragon clears out the bandits and starts using the cave as his den.

partial x-post with AQ

Some caves. Otherwise you get the very worst aspect of level scaling from Oblivion. There's nothing quite as bizarre as "I am an escaped criminal, still pretty much an unknown nobody, but by reaching level 4 I have triggered the worldwide extinction of rats, along with an overnight population explosion of full grown wolves." Coincidentally, at the same time, every goblin everywhere becomes a goblin warrior, every skeleton everywhere becomes a skeleton archer, every bandit everywhere trades in their fur for leather (there has just got to be a gigantic mountain of abandoned fur armor around here someplace!), etc etc etc. And it keeps happening!

 

[Gori the Grey]

Yeah, that's fine. Some caves.

Different ones at different times. Not all rats suddenly gone in all caves, but in this particular cave rats changed to bandits, when I hit level 11. In another cave, goblins change to trolls when I hit 16.

 

[Senethro]

So how do you clearly signal that to your casual gamer?

 

[Gori the Grey]

You work it into dialogue of the NPCs. "Did you hear about those bandits who seem to be operating out of that cave up north?"

It would actually be a way of giving NPCs something to say worth the PC bothering to listening to.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yeah, I really don't think that development works that way. How about comparing apples to apples instead of hobbyists to professionals? (who have different audiences)

And Daggerfall isn't so much open world as Empty Of Content world.

Overwhelming majority of ES worlds are empty scenery too.

 

[Senethro]

Overwhelming majority of ES worlds are empty scenery too.

Not a remotely fair comparison.

Whereas walking through Skyrim there are clearly locations where you can tell someone has adjusted the environment to tell a small narrative, mirror an irl biome or whatever. Little things.

 

[Farm Boy]

I thought skyrim was something like a few to a dozen square miles of painstakingly placed objects whereas Daggerfall(way, way ahead of itself) was something like Britain filled with a mediocre algorithm of stuff.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Whereas walking through Skyrim there are clearly locations where you can tell someone has adjusted the environment to tell a small narrative, mirror an irl biome or whatever. Little things.

These "little" things are sufficiently little that their marginal value over nothing/fast travel remains little.

 

[Senethro]

These "little" things are sufficiently little that their marginal value over nothing/fast travel remains little.

This is an argument against open world games in their entirety, I agree.

 

[Mouthwash]

These "little" things are sufficiently little that their marginal value over nothing/fast travel remains little.

You're kidding, right? Guys? Skyrim's world is why I could tolerate the completionist leveling system and horrendous story. If you don't like it, I'd say you simply don't like fantasy period.

 

[EgonSpengler]

You're kidding, right? Guys? Skyrim's world is why I could overlook the completionist leveling system and horrendous story. If you don't like it, I'd say you simply don't like fantasy period.

That's how I felt about Fallout 4. The story is like falling down a flight of stairs; the player should get paid for the settlements system; the combat and character development are fine, I guess; but it's a great, open-world exploration game.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I loved running around in Skyrim on and off the roads. There was lots to look at and enjoy. I always used terrain and scenic mods though.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I loved running around in Skyrim on and off the roads. There was lots to look at and enjoy. I always used terrain and scenic mods though.

This is such a typical comment on BethSoft. "I love their stuff! Of course, I never actually see their stuff."

 

[Lexicus]

Well, I use scenic mods too but I had fun with the unmodded game on Xbox 360 back in the day.

 

[Ajidica]

Just want to say I don't really get where this trope of "Bethesda games are ugly" comes from. Sure, their shaders, models, and animations tend to be a bit crude but even when I was playing vanilla skyrim on lowest setting on my laptop I still thought the game could be quite beautiful.

Spoiler Example :

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Just want to say I don't really get where this trope of "Bethesda games are ugly" comes from. Sure, their shaders, models, and animations tend to be a bit crude but even when I was playing vanilla skyrim on lowest setting on my laptop I still thought the game could be quite beautiful.

Spoiler Example :

I don't really know where it came from either. "Ugly" has never been my complaint about a BethSoft game...except Fallout 3 and that I took as intentional and appropriate for the post-apocalyptic setting. My complaints about BethSoft are all gameplay related. Skyrim I didn't think was terrible, though still having a ton of room for improvement. Oblivion, IMO has to be totally gutted and remade in order to be even playable, but if the gameplay is rebuilt properly is one of the best games ever.

 

[Ajidica]

Oblivion, IMO has to be totally gutted and remade in order to be even playable, but if the gameplay is rebuilt properly is one of the best games ever.

I dunno. Any game I've sunk over 300 hours into can't be all that bad.

EDIT: Or I have terrible taste in games. Equally possible.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I dunno. Any game I've sunk over 300 hours into can't be all that bad.

EDIT: Or I have terrible taste in games. Equally possible.

Man, I have waaaaaay more than 300 hours sunk into Oblivion, but it probably lasted less than twenty before I put it on the shelf for a couple years while I waited for the modders to fix it.

 

[cardgame]

A game can certainly be enjoyable without being good.

For example, Bethesda games in particular are enjoyable - with mods - but by itself aren't really that good.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

A game can certainly be enjoyable without being good.

For example, Bethesda games in particular are enjoyable - with mods - but by itself aren't really that good.

My opinion, and it's just opinion, is that Morrowind, all by itself, was really good. But nothing else I've seen from BethSoft that they made before or since is better than just adequate and there aren't many of those. What I thought was an indication of a brilliant game company has turned out to be just a proverbial nut that was apparently found by some blind squirrels.