Definition 1b seems to be what I am going for here.
What makes someone a Christan?
- Thread starter Elta
- Start date
Berzerker
Deity
And it says disciples were students, not the general population of Christians.
The point is meaningless, no one said Jesus used the word Christian to identify his followers... The term was used by his followers after his crucifixion to identify his religion and his flock.
I think it is useful to identify his religion - which is how I use it.
Nylan
Characters Welcome
Well, isn't that what he's getting at?
Berzerker
Deity
well join the crowd
what was the point of all that, Eran?
what was the point of all that, Eran?
The point of all that is that I think the best way to define "Christian" (as opposed to something else, like "follower of Christ" or "person living a Christ-like life") is to refer to that individual's beliefs, rather than their actions. I have no problem classifying Joseph Kony, say, as a Christian even though I do not see his life as being in harmony with Christ, because of what he believes.
Berzerker
Deity
no one said Jesus used the term Christian, so whats the point?
My point is that we shouldn't use Jesus' definition of what it takes to be a follower of his when defining the word "Christian".
Berzerker
Deity
Beliefs are hidden, actions speak louder than words. If I believe in Jesus and I run around killing people, my beliefs dont make me a Christian and my actions prove I'm no Christian. To this the "faith" side would say those actions also prove the alleged belief is phony, perhaps, but even their rebuttal requires using actions or deeds as the proof. I dont remember the verse so I'll paraphrase what I do remember - Some students were asking Jesus about non believers (I think, this is pretty sketchy) and Jesus asked if their fruits were just, ie, were they doing good, even casting out demons and healing etc? If so, it dont matter in whose name they do it, they're with us in spirit.
Beliefs are hidden, and actions speak louder than words. Absolutely. But since I don't believe that all Christians are going to heaven and no non-Christians are, that doesn't matter. Someone can be a Christian and a bad person; conversely, they can be a good person and not be a Christian. But we need a word to describe the set of people who believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ - and "Christian" is the best word for that. By any other definition we can't even say whether any given person is a Christian.
(Incidentally, and not to make an unwarranted appeal to authority, this is the same definition CS Lewis used. He pointed out that since we had plenty of words to describe "morally good person" we didn't need to add "Christian" to the mix.)
(Incidentally, and not to make an unwarranted appeal to authority, this is the same definition CS Lewis used. He pointed out that since we had plenty of words to describe "morally good person" we didn't need to add "Christian" to the mix.)
Berzerker
Deity
Why not? Are his teachings irrelevant to what it means to be a Christian? Seems to me he's just the right person to define the word, its in his name after all - Jesus Christ
He may be the right person to define the word - but he never even used it, let alone define it!
And his teachings aren't irrelevant, either - but there is a difference between those who believe in his teachings, and those who follow them.
And his teachings aren't irrelevant, either - but there is a difference between those who believe in his teachings, and those who follow them.
Berzerker
Deity
It sure matters when identifying Christians. Are you a Christian? If you believe some non Christians are going to Heaven are you basing that on them being good people? And why would some Christians not make it to Heaven? Because they were bad?
But if a Christian is defined as "good", being a good person qualifies even if the good person never heard of Jesus. I dont know about that first part, I have a tough time believing some murderous tyrant was a Christian based on his belief Jesus was his savior or son of God. We've had quite a few of them...
I'd think that would be a sect or denomination, the word Christian reflects a broader spectrum. Jesus said we'd know them by their fruits... And he referred to wolves in sheep's clothing, those who use words to hide their bad fruit and lead others astray. Seems like Jesus endorsed deeds as proof...
I think they're synonymous
Love God
love others
upon these two commandments rest the entire Law of the Prophets
Right, but there is a world of difference between "loving God and others" and being Christian, and that right there is the heart of our disagreement.
Berzerker
Deity
So what? His followers did use it and they attached the word to people who followed his teachings. And Jesus did define his religion, therefore we know his followers by comparing them to his teachings.
Yeah, one says they're Christian and the other proves it with their deeds.
Berzerker
Deity
Jesus boiled it all down to those two commandments, all the rest is just talk. So no difference, a true Christian loves God and loves others and their deeds are the proof. It dont matter if you ever heard of Jesus...
Nylan
Characters Welcome
You're not paying attention to what he's saying.
Nylan
Characters Welcome
11 pages and no consensus.
I think there's a general majority...or at least a plurality...but c'mon, this is CFCOT.
Berzerker
Deity
then go ahead and explain it
You're not paying attention to what he's saying
see, not very informative, could just as easily apply to you.
we'll see, maybe more easily
