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What other Civs would you like to see added to DoC

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by AtlantaMarty, Apr 18, 2017.

  1. AtlantaMarty

    AtlantaMarty No longer active

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    The only city the Ottomans would lose would be Athens - it's hardly a scripted killing.
     
  2. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

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    counterpoint - then it's hardly important enough to script.
     
  3. star15389

    star15389 Prince

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    The decline of the Ottoman Empire was pretty important though? It can still be very powerful very late; this shouldn't happen
     
  4. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

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    Now that we have a larger map and more people's input on this thread, I'm going to amend my list of civs that I want to see added as playable (listed by priority bc I know not all of these will be put in):

    1. Assyria
    2. Burma
    3. Kilwa Sultinate (a third slave trading state would add alot)
    4. Manchus
    5. Sumeria (I'd like to see the start date pushed back to 4000BC with Sumeria and the Egyptian city states spawning then)
    6. Australia/South Africa
    7. Hungary (I've been swayed that this handicaps the Ottomans and Byzantines the least, and they were fairly large)
    8. Sweden (Will help to contain mega-Russia if they're strong during the 1500 and 1600s instead of collapsing like the Vikings are.)
    9. Hittites
    10. Malays (seperate from Javanese)
    11. Die Viet (only 2 cities but could have 2 good UHVs -- kill Chinese troops and conquer/settle the central and the Champa independents in the south.)
    12. Gokturks (Gokturks/Uighurs/Kyrgyz Khanates were all Turkish) -- Respawn at Sarai as Golden Horde as non-playable to keep Russia from getting too strong too fast
    13. Songhai
    14. Nubia
    15. Oman
    16. Peru/Chile (both or neither -- they share alot of history -- might want to add the resource guano)
    17. Kanem Empire (their UHV could be for them to build transSaharan trade routes)

    I now present myself for criticism. I did exclude all 1 city civs with the exception of Sumeria (for obvious cultural/tech reasons).

    Let's propose another solution. I'd like to see them stronger faster and weaker sooner. I'd like to flip the Balkans to them (excluding Constantinople) along w Anatolia. Can't we give them some kind of stability deficit in the late 1800s (like after 1870)?
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
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  5. KeeperOT7Keys

    KeeperOT7Keys did nothing wrong

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    I think the problem is not using a scripted spawn while representing it.
    The last time I played, game was usually lacking a period where every European power except the Ottomans have switched to rifleman while Ottomans had to use Janissaries, thus Ottomans were constantly losing territories during 18th-19th centuries. Ottomans mostly lost their territories during this period when they got invaded by Russians, French (Egypt by Napoleon then English), and Austrians.

    But in the game as we all know:
    1. None of the AI can conduct an effective landing, thus Ottoman Egypt or North Africa never gets invaded. Also neither French nor English ever gets involved in wars against Russians or Ottomans.
    2. Austrians suddenly becomes too weak when Prussians spawn, effectively ending their chance to defeat Ottomans in a war. Then they mostly get involved in other European Wars which they usually lose (against Prussia or French), before any conflict with Ottomans.
    3. Russians are even worse than Ottomans considering tech, though they are normally able to defeat Ottomans in Balkans if Ottomans gain access to rifleman before them they are unable to make any progress.
    4. In addition to these three powers, Venetians-Italians were important participant in wars against Ottomans, both when defending Balkans and retaking them. However in the game I never saw them declaring war on Ottomans (because mostly they don't even spawn).

    If some of these problems could be solved then we can represent the decline of Ottomans in the game, and Greece respawn would be a consequence of this decline rather than a forced script.
     
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  6. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Official motion that people mark their civ suggestion with an asterisk (*) if they intend that suggestion to be implemented with the proposed new map. It makes it easier to judge where the suggestion is coming from.

    Interesting, but I still think WW1 was primarily a consequence of the diplomatic situation between the great powers. Serbia was the fuse, not the powderkeg.

    Besides, what would that even entail in the game? Using spies to trigger a war?

    I agree. Ottoman weakness should come from a widening technological gap and overall instability from having a large empire. Neither is currently correctly modeled in the mod, but these causes need to be addressed instead of their symptoms.
     
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  7. borhap88

    borhap88 Prince

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    My list of civs I'd like to see, in order of priority:

    1) Modern Italy, starting as Kingdom of Italy in 1861 or as Duchy of Savoy before (maybe as 1700 starting civ); some UHV could be a)Be the first to discover Radio, Telephone and Fascism (I know there are new techs, sorry) b)Control X% of Mediterranean + Ethiopia by 1940 c)Be in the top 5 GDP civs by 1990. UP should give some diplomatic bonus (defensive pacts-breaker without consequences).
    2) Swahili civ, starting as Kilwa Sultanate in 960; UHVs could be trade-related (during 15th century it was one of top traders in Indian Ocean) or some "don't lose any cities to Europeans until 1600".
    3) Turkic civ, starting as Timurid Empire in 1370 or/succeded by Khanate of Bukhara in 1500.
    4) Israelites (*), starting around 1600 BC as Kingdom of Israel. Too many ideas on their UHVs or UP, don't know it they are faisable or not.
    5) Split Malays and Javanese (*) civs. Further enlargement of Sumatra and Java is needed, btw.
    6) Sweden, starting in 1523.
    7) Burmese civ (*) starting as Kingdom of Burma in 9th century.
    8) Kievan Rus, starting in 879 with Kiev and Novgorod. It could have trade UHV about fur. It could continue as Novgorod Republic if it loses Kiev, giving a stronger position to "Golden Horde" and a new Russian start after Mongol invasion as Grand Duchy of Moscow.
    9) Hungary (*) as said in some previous posts.

    I'm not sure about a Jurchen or Manchu civ.
    I totally disagree with a Celtic civ and Iroqui/Sioux/whatever in North America. The first ones could only be represented by indie just like Gauls, the latter ones by barbs (still dreaming about camp unit for nomadic people...).

    Worthy civs could be also South Africa and Australia, as designed in modmods.

    EDIT - 10) Hittites (*), starting in Anatolia in 1800BC, in order to have a real competitor in Ancient Era in the Middle East. UHVs military-oriented, introducing iron weapons and chariots.
    No need to also have Assiryans, imo.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
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  8. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

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    I could not sum this up better. I think the new map will remedy the Austrian issue, but this North Africa/Egypt issue is a huge problem. I think the Ottomans may need help with this via a scripted event. If we script their conquest of Egypt, then I believe the AI can figure out the rest (the pushing west in North Africa).
     
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  9. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

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    Why would Novgorod be part of Kiev? And the mod mod designs aren't preferable. I'd like to see spawns at their actual spawn dates just like Canada w more original UHVs.

    The Turkic civ idea if good, but isn't practical. (Using that time period and empire.)

    And since Judaism is already a scripted event I don't know why we need an Israel. Outside of religion, I'm not sure what it's huge contributions to civilization is. (No offense)

    Finally, Assyria is more important than the Hittites to history. But I don't think this is an either/or question as their golden ages were separated by 600 years.

    But I will say that modern Italy is really need desperately. Italy's spawn in 1860 should be scripted somehow if they don't exist by then. They don't need to be playable or to have new UHVs, but Nationalism was a pretty important force at that time, and this would model that. I don't support modeling specific events just because but broad historical trends and movements deserve to be modeled, and nationalism was one of those.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
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  10. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

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    1. Assyria
    2. Burma
    3. Kilwa Sultinate
    4. Manchus
    5. Sumeria*
    6. Australia/South Africa
    7. Hungary*
    8. Sweden
    9. Hittites
    10. Malays
    11. Die Viet*
    12. Gokturks (Gokturks/Uighurs/Kyrgyz Khanates were all Turkish) -- Respawn at Sarai as Golden Horde as non-playable to keep Russia from getting too strong too fast
    13. Nubia*
    14. Songhai
    15. Peru/Chile*
    16. Kanem Empire*
    17. Oman
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
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  11. KeeperOT7Keys

    KeeperOT7Keys did nothing wrong

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    Hittites
    Assyria*
    Nubia*
    Manchus
    Some South Asian Civ spawning around Khmers and China for some rivalry*
    (though I lack the historical knowledge of the area to actually propose one, but probably Viets)
    Sweden
    Hungary* - I think, like its done for Poland, even a small enlargement in Balkans would make this a viable civ.
    (Hungary was one of the largest European powers of her time, problem is that Balkans in our map is small for them)
    Swahili
    Kievian Rus (or maybe Khazars since now we have Judaism too) later can respawn as Golden Horde/Crimean Khanate


    A Turkic Civilization in Central Asia for certain, but I'm not sure who should it be
    A more eastern civilization based on Gokturks and Uyghurs could be a choice, but I doubt since they were very short lived and area rapidly got conquered by Tang Dynasty.
    Traditional Turkish view on the origins of Turkish Civilization is that (at least it's taught like this in state schools in Turkey) Xiongnu people were earliest example of Turkish Civilization, so if we want to use this part of the map Xiongnu might be a choice too.

    But if we want to use the area around Samarqand/Transoxania (which I would prefer), the best choices are Karakhanids, Ghaznavids, Seljuks, and Oguz Yabgu State.
    Since first three of these are pretty well known powers I won't spend time on describing them, but we should also note that these three factions were very short lived.
    What I believe is the best choice is Oguz Yabgu State (for starting date purposes), it's founded in 8th century and they were a pretty raiding oriented nomad power for a while. (like what we want from a Turkic Civ?).
    Then descendants from this faction later founded the dynasties of Seljuks, Pechenegs, Khwarazmians, Ottomans, Safavids etc.
    The state itself was not very special but I think it represents a starting point for Turkic Civilization in Middle East. As already proposed Timurids could be a respawn for this civ.

    Maybe it's very unconvenient, but if we are going to add a Turkic Civilization (whether based on Gokturks or Ghaznavids, does not matter) a unique power focused on reallocating the core area would be very interesting. Whenever a city larger than all other cities in the civilization gets conquered, this city and surrounding area becomes the new core and older core area becomes historical, and previous historical areas now becomes foreign etc.
    I'm not sure about the exact power, but I'm proposing it just for the sake of creating a brain storm.
     
  12. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

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    I like the last idea for the Turks. I'd like to see their unique building be the Qaghan's Cart which replaces the palace and essentially allows them to move their capital at will. This is particularly important bc Ordu Baliq where they spawn will become Karakorum when the Mongols spawn. This also works out well bc then we can give the Turkic peoples a dynamic name based off of where their capital is at any given time. That way the Turks can represent all successor Turkic states to the Gokturks just like the Mongols represent all Mongolian successor states.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2017
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  13. EdmundIronside

    EdmundIronside Prince

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    Revised list of possible civilization to add, prioritized roughly on their historical significance.
    1. Assyrians* (900BC)
    2. Hittites (1600BC)
    3. Timurids (1370AD)
    4. Manchu Dynasty (1600AD)
    5. Sweden (1520AD)
    6. Normans* (900AD)
    7. Venetian Republic* (700AD)
    8. Olmecs (1200BC)
    9. Sumerians** (4000BC)
    10. Israelites* (1150BC)
    11. Teutonic Order State (1230AD)
    12. Bulgars* (680AD)

    * Might need an expansion of land as with the new proposed map in order for them to be fully feasible,
    **Might need an expansion of land and an earlier game start time of 4000BC for them to be fully feasible.
     
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  14. KeeperOT7Keys

    KeeperOT7Keys did nothing wrong

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    Tocharians / Yuezhi / Kushans:
    I do not have a concrete idea in my mind about the civilization, but I think either as a 1-2 city civ in the Silk Road/Tarim Basin, or as mighty Kushan Empire* they would offer a very interesting gameplay and would fill the void in Central Asia before any other Turkic Civilization.
    If anyone else thinks its location and historical role would offer an interesting gameplay, then we might brainstorm about the civilizations specialities. btw I think even in the current map there is enough space for them.

    *:Which would make Northern India a more interesting place and would give India a real early military challenge other than mindless barbarians.
     
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  15. Ani Taneen

    Ani Taneen Warlord

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    Let me quote my self:

    That was ages ago, but some of it still holds up.
     
  16. KeeperOT7Keys

    KeeperOT7Keys did nothing wrong

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    I thought including the civilization as only Kushan empire would be too limited, and that's why I was usually cynical about it when it's previously suggested. Also I didn't know that Kushans were actually related to Yuezhi or Tocharians, that's mainly why now I think they can be represented as a whole civ.
     
  17. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Imo the Kushans would be very interesting as a civ. If they spawn in Transoxania, I think a UHV of conquest (Kushan Empire), trade (like the above suggestion: have open borders with a civ in Europe, Africa and East Asia) and religious diversity (three different cathedrals is a nice goal).
     
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  18. soul-breathing

    soul-breathing King

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    We also have made a kushans civ pack for 1.13, about 16 months ago, some screenshots here:
    https://tieba.baidu.com/p/4394987308

    Starting Year: 125bc
    UU: Askava(Horse Archer)
    UB: Arrow Tower(Wall)
    UP: The Power of Silk Road: Extra fields and benefits from Silk Road
    UHV1: Secure or get by trade 10 Silk Road resourses by 600ad
    UHV2: Make sure 15% of world is controlled by Buddhism civs by 900ad
    UHV3: Build 10 Arrow Towers, 8 Stables, 6 Libraries and 4 courthouse by 800ad

    Also added Bamiyan as world wonder in this pack.
     

    Attached Files:

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  19. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

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    I'm worried about how the Kushans would affect Indian development. They were proceeded by the Greeks who were proceded by the Maurya and followed by the Gupta. The Maurya and Gupta were both Indian. Would the Kushans last 300 years and then collapse back into India?

    Also -- the dates on those UHVs for the Kushans are too late, but I like the other parts of the outline.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
  20. civcivcivcivciv

    civcivcivcivciv Warlord

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    Australia and South Africa should be added

    england has so huge land so they are collapsing always
     
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