What size is unwieldy for direct democracy?

Hygro

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Cuz, I'm pretty sure the United States was considered too populated for direct democracy (as defined by popular vote ballot initiatives on any topic) when it was way smaller than California, and our direct democracy has been, with notable missteps, bending strong with the arc of justice.
 
Direct democracy works perfectly for up to about 150 people.

After that it gets hard for everyone to know everyone else, and one starts needing representatives, interest groups and political parties to continue functioning.
 
Sounds about right.
Probably also the optimal size for Communism.
 
Direct democracy works perfectly for up to about 150 people.

After that it gets hard for everyone to know everyone else, and one starts needing representatives, interest groups and political parties to continue functioning.

The Dunbar number ? Sounds about right, but what "works perfectly" means can be subjective and I don't think the number of people is as important as the availability and quality of information.
 
Yes, the Dunbar number -- though I can never remember the name.

I'd say the availability and quality of information in a democracy is as good as it can be when everyone knows each other. Of course, the psychopaths, the callous, the greedy and the Tories/Republicans might still be there, and will still be the same people, but information wise it can't get much better.
 
Since that number was tossed out there in the 90's, I think with the explosion of the internet, it's probably higher now. How much more is open for debate but definitely higher than 150.
 
Meh. Nobody actually has 5000 friends, regardless of what they try to impress upon us on Facebook.

150 seems like a reasonable number of people one actually knows, rather than just having passing knowledge of.
 
You have to define "actually knows". I doubt most people actually knows 150 people.
 
Cuz, I'm pretty sure the United States was considered too populated for direct democracy (as defined by popular vote ballot initiatives on any topic) when it was way smaller than California, and our direct democracy has been, with notable missteps, bending strong with the arc of justice.

I mean, direct democracy did allow for Prop 13. And Prop 227. And Prop 8.
 
Notable missteps. Also 3 among a bazillion.
 
The average person has a memory for around 4,000 different faces of people.
 
You have to define "actually knows". I doubt most people actually knows 150 people.
The definition for the Dunbar Number specifically means the maximum number of people we don't merely know, but have a relationship with and maintain it. Of course, then we're in the weeds of what "maintain" and "relationship" mean, but I think it's safe to say that someone you talk to daily is one of the number, and someone you haven't talked to for years is not.

I think another decent upper limit on a close-knit society's size could be the Dunbar Number squared; that way you either know any person or know someone else who does.
 
Yeah arguing definitions is a tad silly at this point. I just think that the Internet has made the number of known people easier to grow. I feel I know quite a few people here by exchanging information. (more often then one of my neighbors that I only talk to a few times a year) And it's easier to share information. Maybe not as large as the number squared but still more than 150.
 
I dunno. There are certainly a TON of ways to increase democracy within the framework we already have, which is where the starting point should be.

I also think it depends on the department. I'm mostly convinced voting for judges has been an abject failure for the US. I'm glad though that senators are now elected and not appointed. With that in mind, I think the answer is a boring "there's too many variables" and potential. Like, if a county is almost entirely organized by popular referendum/election but has the occasional judge unelected is that still a direct democracy?
 
I dunno. There are certainly a TON of ways to increase democracy within the framework we already have, which is where the starting point should be.
Yes. The important parts would be proportional representation and a parliamentary government. The Senate is alright though, as long as one wants a federation. But the house should be filled through proportional representation, and the president dependent on enough support from it.

PS: Voting for the police or the judiciary is stupid. Does anyone but the US do that?
 
Sheriff makes more sense to vote for than Judge.
 
I like this topic. As i would like one about representative democracy.

Direct democracy has been very much used with up to a few thousand people. Some systems where people are elected for very short period, a few days, or that require a general assembly to vote and pass new laws/rules, can scale like this. Not everyone will go to every assembly, but they can when it is about subjects they're particularly interested.
I see no reason why referendum-type votes on new rules or laws cannot scale for at least hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions. While this requires officials to organize the votes, and to make their outcome effective, it is still direct democracy on very important aspects of government.

The usual objections are that people would not agree, things would not get done. Or that they would vote themselves impossible things. That is possible, but I think that once a system has been in sue for some time people will learn to use it well. Thous would be learning problems. The same kind of arguments could have been made, have been made, against representative democracy when it was new.
 
The California system has actually caused me to think more critically of direct democracy (see below). But it depends on how direct it is. People are too busy to conceivably craft informed legislation on countless complicated issues and it's simply more feasible to have full-time representatives for this purpose. This is true for an electorate of any size. I don't want to vote on tedious, difficult, wordy, and seemingly trivial ballot measures. Instead, I want to vote for qualified people who share my political orientation to do that stuff full-time on my behalf.

On the specific topic of the California system, I don't think it should be viewed as a model. This isn't just because it's resulted in a few bad propositions (prop 13 and prop 8 for instance), but because the system isn't terribly useful to begin with. Most propositions are ridiculous and, once approved, become difficult to get rid of. Consider that most ballot measures become enshrined in the California constitution. In the American model I'm familiar with, having a constitution that's difficult to modify is generally a good thing. But when the constitution engenders a massive range of issues, it stops making sense. In the most recent election, we had narrow issues involving kidney dialysis clinics (regulating how much clinics should refund patients given such and such conditions in such and such situations), whether private ambulance employees should be on-call when taking a break, and how much space chickens get before being slaughtered. Before that, we had condoms in porn, eliminating bilingual clases, horse meat, and in the 60s voters even banned cable TV (courts shot this down). None of these things are the kinds of critical issues that should be part of a state constitution. Maybe that's just my idea of what a constitution should entail, but consider that these things are difficult to eliminate once passed. Take prop 13. It's universally reviled by all but a few lucky landlords and yet somehow we're still stuck with it 40 years later. Because any ballot measure is something we might have to live with for decades, they should be important. And yet they're usually random and narrow issues the average voter never even thinks about (which actually leads a larger criticism of direct democracy I'll get to in a sec). These relatively unimportant issues aren't things voters should be tasked to decide. Instead, we generally have full-time elected representatives for this. These represenatives are the ones who should do the deep-dive into regulating kidney dialysis clinics and studying STD transmission rates associated condomless porn. More importantly, issues that pass through the legislature don't have the permanent status that accompany ballot measures. And they similarly don't tie up the legislature with a labyrinth of impregnable funding/legal restrictions. As a result, I vote no on almost all propositions on principle. Even if I agree with a proposition, there are few issues that I think it should be elevated to level of the state constitution and should be untouchable for decades. And to emphasize how the system isn't that useful, I'm not sure if there have been many, if any, landmark ballot measures (since like 1920) that the legislature or judiciary wouldn't have implemented anyway. After all, it took the California courts to legalize gay marriage and the US Supreme court to re-legalize it. I'm not saying we should do away with the system altogether, but it needs to be reigned in with stricter signature requirements and other measures to ensure that the issues we're voting on are actually important and, if they're not important, aren't quasi-permanent.

So tl;dr, basically the California system is flawed because there are too many silly and weird issues and the system amends the state constitution causing us to get stuck with regrettable propositions for decades. In connection with the overall thread, I don't think it should be the role of the average voter to decide on complicated and obscure issues but the buck is often passed to voters in CA.
 
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