What's the problem with Islam, anyway?

The hadiths are basis for the islamic law, besides Al-Qur'an.

You say this but then you proceed to ignore its implication. Have any of these traditions about the sayings and the deeds of the Prophet been translated by Islamic scholars into laws that prescribe the persecution of non-believers today? Yes or no?

You cite these militant examples, but ironically the same could be done with the Bible itself, which says nothing about the militancy of Christianity today. And you think this proves anything? Way to ignore the whole realm of Islamic scholarship, on which the interpretation of such traditions rests in the first place.
 
I've never seen a thread where one side of the debate steadfastly refuse to discuss the actual issue, yet try to defend it with massive energy while not talking about it. It's a fascinating look at the psychology of evasion and cognitive dissonance.

Perhaps we should re-name the thread the "let's talk about Christianity, colonialism, crusades... anything that diverts attention from the problems in Islam".

You are the one refusing to give any proof that Islam is responsible for anything evil whatsoever.
 
You cite these militant examples, but ironically the same could be done with the Bible itself, which says nothing about the militancy of Christianity today.

I actually think it may say a thing or two.

As long as a holy text in one of its passages endorses murky stuff, then, no matter how fluffy the rest of it is, criticising said text is legitimate.
 
I actually think it may say a thing or two.

As long as a holy text in one of its passages endorses murky stuff, then, no matter how fluffy the rest of it is, criticising said text is legitimate.

So passages in the Bible proves that Christianity today is a militant religion?
 
So passages in the Bible proves that Christianity today is a militant religion?

No, but they certainly prove the potential. Statements like "X is a militant religion" don't make much sense for major world religions anyway.
 
aelf said:
Have any of these traditions about the sayings and the deeds of the Prophet been translated by Islamic scholars into laws that prescribe the persecution of non-believers today?

More precisely do the Ulema even take this kind of thing seriously? Ma' legal primers don't say all that much about it.
 
No, but they certainly prove the potential. Statements like "X is a militant religion" don't make much sense for major world religions anyway.

Yeah, but that's a rather pointless topic of conversation. I've made violent remarks before, which may show that I have the potential to be violent. But I'm not a violent person, nor am I likely to be. So, again, some words spoken or written prove nothing interesting, unless you can show that they are somehow of central importance or significance.
 
you can show that they are somehow of central importance or significance.

If you define "every remark ever made by you" as a Holy Text, I'll be a bit worried :lol:
 
If you define "every remark ever made by you" as a Holy Text, I'll be a bit worried :lol:

Oh, ye of little faith! :gripe:

(At any rate, there are always going to be a few nuts who take holy texts - and the hadiths are not as 'canon' as the Quran, mind - so literally and faithfully as to go down every perverse path that may be suggested, but thankfully the majority of people are quite happy to believe what makes sense)
 
At any rate, talking about actions as opposed to words, historically, both Christianity and Islam have a fairly similar number of Bad Stuff Done In Honour of God, and the number, IMO, while not condemning, is still significant enough.

I'm just opposed to all that "X religion's principles are 100% good, every bad thing done in its name is the guilt of its followers" stuff. Such position makes as much sense as a blanket "X religion is evil lolz they kill people hahaha". When analysing something, it's only fair to point out both fluffy bunnies and spooky monsters.
 
Christianity was corrupted after its creation by man, Islam was simply created by some guy who needed an excuse for his kin to unite and go on a killing spree.
See, now, if you're going to set out with the presumption that Christianity is objectively correct, and that Islam is just a load of old cobblers some guy made up for a laugh, then you're never going to get an accurate reading of things.

Second but your thing about the Crusades, they were in fact a delayed reaction to the holy war the Muslims brought to Europe three centuries earlier. We were just better about continuing the fight at the time so we brought a few holy wars to try to recapture the holy land.
You seem to be under the impression that the crusades were merely targeted against Muslims, which ignores those crusades- and, more broadly, religiously motivated wars- aimed at pagans and heretics within Europe, such as the Baltic Crusades or the Albigensian Crusade, respectively. Even William I's conquest of Catholic England was formally endorsed by the Pope, and widely characterised as a crusade by his contemporaries, and that can hardly be described as a reaction to Islam.
The briefest reading of Europe history makes it rather self-evident that the Christian penchant for holy wars was more than the mere reaction which you declare it to be.

I'm just opposed to all that "X religion's principles are 100% good, every bad thing done in its name is the guilt of its followers" stuff. Such position makes as much sense as a blanket "X religion is evil lolz they kill people hahaha". When analysing something, it's only fair to point out both fluffy bunnies and spooky monsters.
Has anyone actually argued that point? :huh:
 
Colonel said:
Second but your thing about the Crusades, they were in fact a delayed reaction to the holy war the Muslims brought to Europe three centuries earlier. We were just better about continuing the fight at the time so we brought a few holy wars to try to recapture the holy land.

Actually, it was a direct response to a call from Alexios I Komnenos, Roman Emperor, to aid him in repelling the Seljuk Turks at that time invading the Roman Empire. It wasn't a call to throw back the Arab armies of three centuries before. It was a call to remove freaking Turks from the Empire's new hinterland in Anatolia.
 
Has anyone actually argued that point?

Well, Colonel's "Christianity was corrupted after its creation" was pretty direct example of overbunnifying Christianity, and Ajidica's over-idealization of early Muslim polities seems to me to be, partially, a result of that mantra applied to Islam.

You seem to be under the impression that the crusades were merely targeted against Muslims, which ignores those crusades- and, more broadly, religiously motivated wars- aimed at pagans and heretics within Europe, such as the Baltic Crusades or the Albigensian Crusade, respectively.

Exactly:gripe: The evil West sended its crusaders against the Holy Rus', but our hero, Alexander Nevsky, defeated their vile plans:gripe: It is a proof of West being against Russia since old times:gripe:
 
Well, Colonel's "Christianity was corrupted after its creation" was pretty direct example of overbunnifying Christianity, and Ajidica's over-idealization of early Muslim polities seems to me to be, partially, a result of that mantra applied to Islam.
Ah, yes, you'd think I'd've remembered Colonel's post, given that I actually quote from it! :blush::crazyeye:

Still, I'm not sure that Ajidica and the rest are suggesting that Islam was ever "100% good", simply that it was generally well-intentioned. Perhaps they are downplaying any flaws- whatever they are- for the sake of neutrality, but I really don't think it's intended as an actual endorsement of Islam.
 
Perhaps they are downplaying any flaws- whatever they are- for the sake of neutrality, but I really don't think it's intended as an actual endorsement of Islam.

I don't think that they are endorsing it too - I said that it's a partial result of the attitude.
 
See, now, if you're going to set out with the presumption that Christianity is objectively correct, and that Islam is just a load of old cobblers some guy made up for a laugh, then you're never going to get an accurate reading of things.

There is an important point, however. In the life of Jesus, I see 2 violent examples: when he chased out the traders and when he said he comes to bring the sword. He didn't engage in wars, forced conversions etc, although his followers, after several centuries, did. Christians today can condemn Theodose the Great or pope Urban for their actions. Muslims can not condemn Muhammad.

You seem to be under the impression that the crusades were merely targeted against Muslims, which ignores those crusades- and, more broadly, religiously motivated wars- aimed at pagans and heretics within Europe, such as the Baltic Crusades or the Albigensian Crusade, respectively. Even William I's conquest of Catholic England was formally endorsed by the Pope, and widely characterised as a crusade by his contemporaries, and that can hardly be described as a reaction to Islam.
The briefest reading of Europe history makes it rather self-evident that the Christian penchant for holy wars was more than the mere reaction which you declare it to be.

this came later. The first official crusades were against muslims. I don't see what it has to do with the subject. Christian idea was no different than muslim at this time: if a land belongs to infidels, we're free to take it.

You neglect to mention however, that the first crusade (amongst others) went on to cause rather a lot of devastation in the Byzantine empire. The request was a pretext, that is all.

Not for the pope, but for some of its leaders, especially Boemund, perhaps. Every passing army, especially great, not to mention the folk crusade, which was very much a rifraf of incited peasants, causes troubles. Byzantium profited a lot from the first crusade - thanks to it, the emperor managed to reconquer western Anatolia.

You are the one refusing to give any proof that Islam is responsible for anything evil whatsoever.

Do you claim it is not responsible for anything evil whatsoever?

You say this but then you proceed to ignore its implication. Have any of these traditions about the sayings and the deeds of the Prophet been translated by Islamic scholars into laws that prescribe the persecution of non-believers today? Yes or no?

You cite these militant examples, but ironically the same could be done with the Bible itself, which says nothing about the militancy of Christianity today. And you think this proves anything? Way to ignore the whole realm of Islamic scholarship, on which the interpretation of such traditions rests in the first place.

Again "but in the Bible"... My post was a direct response to someone doubting that Muhammad was spreading islam by violence. The Old Testament had fragments about warfare, true, but I don't think it has any instructions to fight every infidels until they convert. Judaism was not a missionary / expansionist religion. In the New Testament, there's nothing about warfare.

These quotes had practical implications for centuries. I believe I did mention that muslims could only stop fighting infidels for 10 years, and this only when they were losing.

Does they have legal implications today? Probably yes, although, obviously, not for all muslims. You can hear Ahmadinejad etc talking about islam conquering the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

* Ayatollah Khomeini in his book On Islamic Government indicates unequivocally that non-Muslims should be required to pay the poll tax, in return for which they would profit from the protection and services of the state; they would, however, be excluded from all participation in the political process.[33] Bernard Lewis remarks about Khomeini that one of his main grievances against the Shah was that his legislation allowed the theoretical possibility of non-Muslims exercising political or judicial authority over Muslims.[34]

* Dr. Zakir Naik, a prominent Islamic preacher from India, has stated that "as far as the matters of religion are concerned we know for sure that only Islam is the true religion in the eyes of God. In 3:85 it is mentioned that God will never accept any religion other than Islam. As far as the second question regarding building of churches or temples is concerned, how can we allow this when their religion is wrong? And when worship is also wrong? Thus we will surely not allow such wrong things in our (i.e. an Islamic) country."[41]

Thankfully, there are saner attitudes present as well.
 
Because the role that Islam is playing in holding back the scientific and democratic development of the Middle East and other Islamic countries needs to be assessed as a matter of urgency.

How?

You know whats actually holding back democratic development in the Middle East? SECULAR DICTATORSHIPS that oppress there people, keep them poor, and all with the support of the U.S., because they make sure to smother any islamic political opposition. You know who is the leading pro-democracy group in Egypt? The Muslim Brotherhood, who have wide support among average Egyptians. Islamist parties in the Middle East are the ones calling for democracy, while the secular one-party governments whole them down.

You blame Islam for holding back scientific development? History has shown that Islam can be one of the greatest drivers of scientific advancement. If that isn't enough of a rebuttal enough in itself, try that the Middle East is seeing general decline with millions of its people in poverty, while their governments are oppressive, corrupt, uncaring, and(for some of them) bankrupt.
 
Again "but in the Bible"... My post was a direct response to someone doubting that Muhammad was spreading islam by violence. The Old Testament had fragments about warfare, true, but I don't think it has any instructions to fight every infidels until they convert. Judaism was not a missionary / expansionist religion. In the New Testament, there's nothing about warfare.

These quotes had practical implications for centuries. I believe I did mention that muslims could only stop fighting infidels for 10 years, and this only when they were losing.

Does they have legal implications today? Probably yes, although, obviously, not for all muslims. You can hear Ahmadinejad etc talking about islam conquering the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

* Ayatollah Khomeini in his book On Islamic Government indicates unequivocally that non-Muslims should be required to pay the poll tax, in return for which they would profit from the protection and services of the state; they would, however, be excluded from all participation in the political process.[33] Bernard Lewis remarks about Khomeini that one of his main grievances against the Shah was that his legislation allowed the theoretical possibility of non-Muslims exercising political or judicial authority over Muslims.[34]

* Dr. Zakir Naik, a prominent Islamic preacher from India, has stated that "as far as the matters of religion are concerned we know for sure that only Islam is the true religion in the eyes of God. In 3:85 it is mentioned that God will never accept any religion other than Islam. As far as the second question regarding building of churches or temples is concerned, how can we allow this when their religion is wrong? And when worship is also wrong? Thus we will surely not allow such wrong things in our (i.e. an Islamic) country."[41]

Thankfully, there are saner attitudes present as well.

Dude, you're the one not paying attention. What I'm saying is that quoting from holy books and old sayings can prove nothing particularly interesting about a religion today, unless you can show that those quotes have some sort of special significance or some real implication worth noting. And going on to cite few examples from the fringe also does nothing of the sort. You can do the same for any group that is large enough, whether it's a religion or not.

You're wasting your time by even coming up with these points as if they mean anything.
 
The problem with Islam is that it is a religion, and as such it requires it's adherents to accept the ridiculous as truth.

The problem that most westerners have with Islam is that it is a religion other than their own.
 
I count nine: Madagascar, Tanzania, Rwanda, Mozambique, Afghanistan, Somalia, Ireland and Namibia. I'll add in Vatican city. I cross-checked that with gas and only Madagascar showed up in both lists.

Are you aware that there are 193+ states in the world, and only 90 or so are on this list? So more than half of the states have no oil deposits at all...

But thanks for proving my point that the presence of domestic oil and gas is kinda meaningless as an objective metric!

we were talking about large oil deposits, in general. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned Syria, though.

#1 Kuwait: 39,902,530.317 barrels per 1,000 people
#2 United Arab Emirates: 37,576,175.322 barrels per 1,000 people
#3 Qatar: 18,071,765.239 barrels per 1,000 people
#4 Saudi Arabia: 9,722,524.625 barrels per 1,000 people
#5 Libya: 6,778,794.71 barrels per 1,000 people
#6 Canada: 5,405,008.234 barrels per 1,000 people
#7 Iraq: 4,200,365.577 barrels per 1,000 people
#8 Brunei: 3,307,470.931 barrels per 1,000 people
#9 Venezuela: 2,937,766.112 barrels per 1,000 people
#10 Norway: 2,138,231.377 barrels per 1,000 people
[...]
# 20 Suriname: 341,594.609 barrels per 1,000 people

So out of top 10, 7 are muslim, and 5,5 are in the Middle East.
out of top 5, all are middle eastern countries. What does it change?

The drop-off between the UAE (#2) and Norway (#10) is 1850%.
The drop-off between the UAE (#2) and Suriname (#20) is somewhat more than that. But going by that data five are in the Middle East but four of which I've already alluded to with my earlier post and well that leave Iraq. Libya is North African. Norway is Scandinavia. Venezuela is Communist. Canada is boring. And Brunei is on the other side of the world. It isn't as clear cut as you might like to think.

I've never claimed it is clear-cut. And I don't really know what do you think you're proving. Libya is halfly in North Africa region, and halfly in Middle East (Barqa region) anyway. North Africa is a region very much connected to Middle East anyway.

Biggest isn't really all that relevant dood. China (#15) figures in absolute terms but it has a billion and a bit people to split it between which forces it down the per capita list big time (#54).

Sure, but let look at Middle East and North Africa

Saudi Arabia 1 ---> 4 D3
Iran 3 ---> 13 D10
iraq 4 ---> 7 D3
UAE 5 ---> 2 U3
Kuwait 6 ---> 1 U5
Libya 9 ---> 5 U4
Qatar 16 ---> 3 U13
Algeria 18 --> 19 D1
oman 20 ---> 12 U8
Yemen 25 ---> 26 D1
Egypt 29 ---> 43 D14
Syria 30 ---> 30 --
Tunisia 32 ---> 29 U3
Sudan 33 ---> 42 D9
Mauritania 39 ---> 22 U17
Azerbaijan 44 ---> 35 U9
Turkey 54 ---> 70 D16
Bahrain 65 ---> 28 U 37

8 down (by 7,125 average), 1 stable, 9 up (by 11 average)

So, if anything, per capita numbers increase the predominance of Middle East in oil production.

Putting a gun to someone's head and forcing them

Did they? Didn't they profit from it, anyay?

Signing a document between two consenting parties with proper consideration as part of an arms length transaction isn't exploitative. Just because Saudi Arabia dealt with Western firms didn't make it exploitative considering that it was between consenting parties operating at arms length with proper consideration. If that wasn't the case then it would have been exploitative. Civilised countries usually have this kind of distinction enshrined in law..

I guess you're missing my point, which is that the oil production, even in non-colonial ME countries, was started by western companies due to the needs of the western markets. If there was no West, there would be no rich oil states today.
Saudi Arabia and Persia may have been officially independent, but you know well how did it look in reality.
Even in Oman, it was western capital that started the production, with (forced) cooperation of the gouverment.

Previous conquerors usually didn't reduce the average per capita living standards of those living of those living under them as a matter of course.

I'd really like to see you prove that living standarts of the Middle Eastern/North African countries conquered by western powers decreased during their colonial / mandate period.
 
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