When did feminism go completely crazy?

[Farm Boy]

Less guns where you come from. Less dead underclass men on the street too, from what I understand. Less talk of the need to "walk small" and apologize for the fear your presence creates, particularly amongst those interacting while black. I guess now that you mention it FP, I'm half remembering a conversation we had about brute force crimes.

 

[Traitorfish]

Define accost for me again?

Wiktionary gives the definition "To approach and speak to boldly or aggressively, as with a demand or request". I'd say that the events describe at least run up against the boundaries of this definition.

 

[Flying Pig]

Less guns where you come from. Less dead underclass men on the street too, from what I understand. Less talk of the need to "walk small" and apologize for the fear your presence creates, particularly amongst those interacting while black. I guess now that you mention it FP, I'm half remembering a conversation we had about brute force crimes.

Yes, I do appreciate that angle - I'm fairly sure it was with you (or at least on CFC) that I heard/read somebody talking about how feminists, being (inevitably?) dominated by the white and middle-class, often conflate 'bad men' with 'working-class men'. That said, how many men are shot by civilian women for catcalling? I see what you're saying but suspect you're going at it in the wrong direction - I'll bet that those conversations end with a lot more women end up being hurt or killed than men.

 

[Traitorfish]

We're talking about somebody at an atheist convention, the whitest and most middle class thing it's possible to think of, and we can't criticise the guy because that somehow spills over onto black and working class men?

Christ on a bike, Farm Boy, these progress-ish red herrings of yours are getting more contrived by the day.

 

[Farm Boy]

Yes, I do appreciate that angle - I'm fairly sure it was with you (or at least on CFC) that I heard/read somebody talking about how feminists, being (inevitably?) dominated by the white and middle-class, often conflate 'bad men' with 'working-class men'. That said, how many men are shot by civilian women for catcalling? I see what you're saying but suspect you're going at it in the wrong direction - I'll bet that those conversations end with a lot more women end up being hurt or killed than men.

I bet you are right. But I also have seen what happens when we allow a culture to run amok blaming people for how scary they look. Combine that with old school prudery about slut shaming, and this is a really weird issue.

TF, feces rolls downhill. But whatever, so sorry to offend your hetwhitedude sensibilities.

 

[BvBPL]

"Because it's the sort of thing a predator would do."

It's also the sort of thing friendly people do.

Both of those things are true, or could be true.

It is possible for one party to act in a manner that he believes to be reasonable and friendly and for the other party to take offense and feel threatened. Neither party is necessarily wrong.

It is perfectly possible for a person to feel threatened or uncomfortable by behavior from another party who believes his acts to be reasonable.

That doesn't invalidate the discomfort that the recipient feels. Which is why I don't like caketastydish's and Dawkins's responses. They invalidate the discomfort the woman felt as well as the expression of that discomfort.

That's one thing that people with advantages often have a hard time understanding: that discomfort is not an objective standard that can be applied across the board. There's a very broad range of what is reasonable discomfort that includes reactions to otherwise reasonable actions.

 

[Farm Boy]

That's one thing that people with advantages often have a hard time understanding: that discomfort is not an objective standard that can be applied across the board. There's a very broad range of what is reasonable discomfort that includes reactions to otherwise reasonable actions.

Damn straight. Which is why we should at least pause on heating the tar when the groundskeeper pauses his weedeater to "gawk at the cheerleaders in short skirts" walk by him on the sidewalk. Or somebody doesn't walk small enough. At exactly the right time. For exactly who happens to be present at that time.

 

[warpus]

If someone's first line to me in an elevator at 4am is "do you want to take me up the bum?" or something similar, it's just.. well, you've got to work up to that, you can't just ask it right away. "Hi, my name is Susan, how are you, yadda yadda, would you take me up the bum?" - now we're getting somewhere.

Not to make light of the situation, but it's incredibly context specific. There's a creepy way to proposition someone.. and while it's not easy at all to make a non-creepy sexual proposition in an elevator at 4am, it's not entirely outside of the realm of possibility. Just be a gentleman/woman, don't be forceful, smile, introduce yourself, and you might very well come off as someone the other person might want to spend some quality time with.

Granted, most people would come off as creepy in that situation, no doubt.

 

[Flying Pig]

I bet you are right. But I also have seen what happens when we allow a culture to run amok blaming people for how scary they look. Combine that with old school prudery about slut shaming, and this is a really weird issue.

TF, feces rolls downhill. But whatever, so sorry to offend your hetwhitedude sensibilities.

I read a good explanation as to why feminism remains feminism a few days ago - the point was raised that most 'men's issues' are just the other side of the issues that feminists have always been working against. Hence men have problems getting to mental healthcare because we've created a culture that says that 'talking about feelings' is effeminate. I wonder if this is the same: the strange way we deal with (female) sexuality meaning that people genuinely can't understand the idea of being 'casually propositioned'. It's sex, so it has to be a serious matter - you can't just ask for sex like you can ask somebody's name, because sex is a terribly important thing.

 

[Borachio]

This thread makes me despair of the human race.

Relax! It's just CFC OT. No one here is typical of, or represents, the human race. Many people don't even mean what they say here. Or only half mean it.

 

[caketastydelish]

Friendly people don't accost random women in elevators.

Maybe if men want this "token voice" in feminism, they should learn to put the well-being and, yes, even the comfort of women ahead of their damn pride.

If literally all he did was ask her to have coffee with him, I honestly don't see the big deal. If all she had to do was say is "no" (which she did), and that was apparently the end of it, I'm not seeing the big deal here.

If I asked a woman out for a cup of coffee and her response was "he harassed me" I would roll my eyes also.

 

[Borachio]

At 2 am, "coffee" generally means an invitation to sexual intercourse. Which is unfortunate if the guy really did mean coffee.

I think it's an inappropriate invitation to make to a stranger in a lift at 2 am. Especially if no one else was around.

 

[caketastydelish]

Ok, so what if he just flat said "would you like to have sex with me"? Same situation. All she has to do is say no, then it's over.

 

[Borachio]

I'd still say that's inappropriate. But a lot of it is cultural: whether someone else finds it acceptable or not.

I should add that an awful lot depends on the preamble too. Straight out of the blue requests for sex very seldom work. Some estimates put your chances of success as low as 5 per cent. I wouldn't know. Never having made such a request even once.

 

[Flying Pig]

Ok, so what if he just flat said "would you like to have sex with me"? Same situation. All she has to do is say no, then it's over.

The worry is that if the (large) bloke in question decides that it's not, there's not a lot of ways to go in a lift.

 

[Triewd]

TF, feces rolls downhill. But whatever, so sorry to offend your hetwhitedude sensibilities.

Farm Boy what does this even mean?

EDIT:Also How is the fact that Traitor is Heterosexual White and a Man relevant? (are you not making an assumption BTW?) How do we know that?

 

[caketastydelish]

The worry is that if the (large) bloke in question decides that it's not, there's not a lot of ways to go in a lift.

Well that's what it comes down to. Either he continued to talk to her after she said no, or he didn't. And from my understanding if the situation, he didn't. He asked her for coffee at 4 in the morning and she said no, then he left. Yeah, forgive me for not giving a damn.

 

[Borachio]

Farm Boy what does this even mean?

Mr Boy's comment was addressed to TraitorFish, not you, I think.

 

[Triewd]

Relax! It's just CFC OT. No one here is typical of, or represents, the human race. Many people don't even mean what they say here. Or only half mean it.

I hope you are right.....

 

[Farm Boy]

Farm Boy what does this even mean?

Also How is the fact that I am Heterosexual White and a Man relevant? (are you not making an assumption BTW?)

TF, in this instance, refers to the poster Traitorfish. Whom I believe was calling my position contrived. I do happen to know he is a hetwhitedude, as he's told us(though by all means, sincere apologies if time or my powers of observation have rendered this conclusion incorrect), and he knows I am one as well. We now know you are as well. We're a knowledgeable group of folks, us.