When did feminism go completely crazy?

[caketastydelish]

I've heard the 77 cents on the dollar figure since the 1980s. Is there a more recent example? Interestingly, I read an article recently that lesbians typically make more money than straight women.

It's 83 cents to the dollar now, not 77.

Depends on how many women actually applied to be a manager. Being a manager is not all glamour & glory, responsibility is a pain. Society tells us we should all try to be chiefs & not indians but in reality we cannot all be nor should we all want to be. I'm ambitious in my own way but I certainly wouldn't have wanted to be manager in most of my jobs.

There are probably lots more women that want to be managers than you realize.

Men are often totally identified with work & making money (often to win the affections of women or because men are more obsessed with status generally) whereas women often have rich lives outside of work & aren't as single-mindedly driven in that regard. Probably a healthier outlook tbh.

Well, these "old fashioned" double standards need to be worked on!

 

[Narz]

More antiquated stereotypes than in an Evo Psych class.

Maybe if you paid more attention to the differences between women & men you could actually acquire yourself some female attention & not need to beg for any attention you can get on the Internet.

Moderator Action: This is a personal attack. Discuss the issue, not the poster.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[caketastydelish]

Oh come on everybody, stop with the ad-homen attacks and debate the issue at hand.

 

[Narz]

There are probably lots more women that want to be managers than you realize.

Lots of people want to be a boss but not that many get to.

I'm all for a society where people can aspire to whatever they want to achieve. But no one deserves something simply for wanting it.


Link to video.

 

[Narz]

Oh come on everybody, stop with the ad-homen attacks and debate the issue at hand.

That was not meant for you, the thread is moving so fast there were 3 or 4 posts in between. I realize I need to add quote-tags to every post.

 

[caketastydelish]

That silly video is your argument? No offense but you've gotta be kidding me.

 

[Senethro]

Maybe if you paid more attention to the differences between women & men you could actually acquire yourself some female attention & not need to beg for any attention you can get on the Internet.

It says a lot about you that you think the only reason a man would be a feminist is to get some "attention"! What a dim view of your own gender you hold.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

Men who major in engineering or Computer Science are not going to be managers because their specific skills for those tasks get wasted being a manager. Humanities subjects help develop critical thinking skills and articulate talking/writing points, which is what managers actually need. As far as college major ratio is concerned, it should if anything be the other way around.

None of that matters, because business majors are far and away more likely to end up in management than either of those groups. Majoring in business is functionally equivalent to majoring in middle management.

How do you kow this?

Same way we all know about anything, I read up on it. But if you want a source:

http://www.businessinsider.com/gender-differences-in-salary-negotiation-2013-11

The actual paper that they source is hidden behind a paywall, but the gist is that when a job listing does not state straight out that salary is negotiable, women are much less likely to negotiate.

You can call it whatever you want, but it's a problem that needs fixing.

Correct, but we need to be fixing it in the right way. Cultural expectations don't change overnight, it takes a lot of work to convince women (as a cultural whole) that they should be aggressive in pursuing their career goals.

 

[caketastydelish]

the pro feminist ad-homen attack: "anti feminists are just men that can't get laid"

the anti feminist ad-homen attack: "male feminists are only that way in a desperate attempt to impress women so they can get laid"

What I say: just debate the issues.

 

[jackelgull]

It says a lot about you that you think the only reason a man would be a feminist is to get some "attention"! What a dim view of your own gender you hold.

Don't you know? The highest purpose of a man's life is to get laid. The is no achievement greater than having lots of sex and the more of it the better.

I should probably add on that I am not being serious here. Just in case.

the pro feminist ad-homen attack: "anti feminists are just men that can't get laid"

the anti feminist ad-homen attack: "male feminists are only that way in a desperate attempt to impress women so they can get laid"

What I say: just debate the issues.

They did try. But then they ran into disagreements. And this is the result.

 

[Narz]

That silly video is your argument? No offense but you've gotta be kidding me.

What argument? I'm not arguing.

I suppose my only argument is with people who say every single thing must be equal everywhere but thats not possibly without forcing people to do things they don't want to do.

I'm not taking this seriously, its CFC, the point of the video is that if you want to do something just go for it, don't whine about the Illuminati/patriarchy/statistics-on-the-internet holding you back. That's for losers.

And if you are deliberately blocked by someone because of your race/sex/age/disability/nose-size/hairdo then write an outraged article about it. Nothing sells copy (ad-space) better than outrage!

 

[Narz]

It says a lot about you that you think the only reason a man would be a feminist is to get some "attention"! What a dim view of your own gender you hold.

You hold a dim view of women thinking they need to be protected & coddled by you.

I don't actually know you personally, I'm only responding to your online persona, perhaps you're quite charming & not patronizing at all IRL.

 

[caketastydelish]

I'm just disappointed by the lack of moderates on the issue. You have people like GoodEnoughForMe who literally support man bashing just because women are more likely to be raped. (the vast majority of men are not rapists, so that's a BS argument)

edit: the main reason rapes are as common as they are is because the vast majority of rapists are repeat rapists who continue to get away with it on a regular basis, not because the average man goes around raping even once or twice.

But some of you on the other hand don't even acknowledge there is a wage gap despite overwhelming statistical proof to the contrary. It's just frustrating that most people are extreme, hardcore one way or the other when it comes to the whole man/woman thing, and there are few 50/50 objectivists.

 

[NovaKart]

I think people believe there is a wage gap but they also say the gap is caused by personal choices and not sexism and that it is very small.

 

[Narz]

I think people believe there is a wage gap but they also say the gap is caused by personal choices and not sexism and that it is very small.

Exactly.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

I'm just disappointed by the lack of moderates on the issue. You have people like GoodEnoughForMe who literally support man bashing just because women are more likely to be raped. (the vast majority of men are not rapists, so that's a BS argument)

But some of you on the other hand don't even acknowledge there is a wage gap despite overwhelming statistical proof to the contrary. It's just frustrating that most people are extreme, hardcore one way or the other when it comes to the whole man/woman thing, and there are few 50/50 objectivists.

I was going to quote the other post, but holy crap this thread is moving fast.

My point is this. Women have been complaining about issues for... well some of them forever. If a woman says "tired of men doing ________" there's no... threat behind that, for lack of a better term. It's not like women are subjugating men in thralls. In many cases, they're dealing with lifelong behaviour from many men that they wish they didn't have to deal with. Criticizing men is just criticizing the societal institutions that allow it.

 

[Cutlass]

I posted a video in this thread several pages back, which had a woman proclaiming "I am not a feminist."

She views herself as a Men's Rights activist, from what I remember, as well as a gender equality activist.

You think that this is just an act? Why? What is she hoping to accomplish by doing this?

And what do you call an "authentic" men's rights activists? What's the term that you use for people like that?

The trick to a woman like that is that she's living a life that was won for her by feminists. She's denying the contribution to the creation of her own lifestyle that those feminists fought for. And she's failing to understand that without those feminists, she wouldn't be in any position to speak out against them.

That's not to say that she doesn't have a point about trying to look for equality for all. It's just that she's failed to see what it takes to get there. We are not on a level playing field. She personally has the advantage of a playing field which has been substantially leveled, by the actions of others. But remove those efforts, and the field tips away again.

Some feminists say that, while others say that it is based around the concept of women's rights. For example, if you want to find a feminist at the university where I work, you'd head to the "Women's studies" department.

From my experience it seems to be based on the foundation of women's rights, for the most part dealing with women's issues rather exclusively, much in the same way that the MRA movement views "Men's rights" a priority.

I am talking about a movement that places the concept of "gender equality" as their foundation, building up their movement from that, instead of focusing on one of the genders instead.

Gender equality is a good goal. But the question comes up on how do you get there?

There are many groups which face discrimination or disadvantage to one degree or another. Sometimes time and changing circumstances wear that away, without any real need to wage a war for it. Other times that's not the case. When it is the case that a group must wage a war for their equality of rights and opportunities, then it's not really feasible to frame that war in terms of what the other side gets.

But make no mistake about it, what these rights groups are actually trying to get, what their ultimate goal is, is equality. Not the superiority which is what their opponents are claiming that they are trying to get. So you might get a minority of the feminist movement who actually do want to make men subservient to women. But that's the fringe of the movement, not the movement itself.

The movement itself is for equality.

So when that woman in your video says she is for equality, but is not a feminist, she's wrong, because she's for neither. If she's not a feminist, then she's not for equality. Because feminism is the strategy for getting to equality. It's the road that needs to be followed.

By the same token, civil rights activists, whether they be African American, LGBT, Native American, whatever, are all, ultimately, seeking equality. All of them face the playing field which is not level. All of them are in search of, are fighting for, that level playing field. Now the closer they get to that level playing field, the more the core of the movement becomes silent, and the fringes of the movement become more and more of the vocal part which is heard from. But you have to understand that all of these movements is a spectrum, not a point. They don't all track exactly the same. Every movement has a core, and it has fringes. Which part of the movement are you hearing from?

Women in most of the developed world have made huge progress in the past half century. And the feminist movement is largely to thank for that. And we're all better off as a result. All, that is, except those people like the MRAs, like some religious extremist groups like the Promise Keepers, groups who fundamentally benefit from the uneven playing field, and are fighting to preserve their unfair advantage.

When the equality movements, feminism, gay marriage, civil rights, when these movements falter, we don't necessarily remain at a place of a leveled playing field. Because there are always forces at work to tip the field once again to the traditional advantage. Feminism remains necessary until the forces seeking to undo the gains of feminism have thrown in the towel.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

I think people believe there is a wage gap but they also say the gap is caused by personal choices and not sexism and that it is very small.

Yes, nobody is saying the wage gap isn't real. The math that led to the wage gap figures wasn't incorrect, they didn't forget to carry a one or something. It's just grossly oversimplified to the point where it doesn't really mean anything and is often trotted out as if it was some kind of impressive proof that the Patriarchy is crushing women beneath it's stern man-foot. The choices that people make (variables) that cause the gap to disappear once controlled for are interesting in themselves, discussions worth having, but the answer isn't "men are oppressing women", it's a more complex cultural issue that, unfortunately for those of us who do the majority of our pontificating online, does not lend itself to easy "sound bite" solutions.

Saying that women make 77% as much as men for the same work doesn't solve the problem. Having long discussions about the cultural issues that cause women to choose lower paying career paths solves the problem, conversations about why we as a society undervalue professions like teaching solves the problem, but that's hard, so most people on the Internet don't want to bother.

 

[caketastydelish]

I was going to quote the other post, but holy crap this thread is moving fast.

My point is this. Women have been complaining about issues for... well some of them forever. If a woman says "tired of men doing ________" there's no... threat behind that, for lack of a better term.

uh... what? Anyway you certainly won't see me of all the people in this thread which would deny that women have it worse overall. I just blame cultural norms for the base of the problem rather than men specifically.

It's not like women are subjugating men in thralls. In many cases, they're dealing with lifelong behaviour from many men that they wish they didn't have to deal with.

Sure but in that case you should at least do it from an objective, non-biased way that talks with both sides of the stick. I have fear and difficulties approaching women. In the society we are in it's the man's job to approach, not the woman's. It hurts women because some men go too far and outright harass them, but on the other hand if a man doesn't want to play by these rules because he prefers women approach them instead, he's statistically out of luck because 90% or so of women also believe in the "old fashioned" way of things.

Criticizing men is just criticizing the societal institutions that allow it.

No it isn't, criticizing societal institutions is doing that, criticizing men is doing that. The reason so many double standards exist (see the pay gap as an example) is there are (surprisingly) just as many women that support these "old fashioned" way of doing things as there are men. It's an across-the-board societal problem, not a man problem. Based on how women in my area are answering their questions on OkCupid, you'd be surprised how many of them literally still believe men should be in charge of their households. Of course there are just as many men that agree with them, and that's the problem.

 

[Narz]

Criticizing men is just criticizing the societal institutions that allow it.

Why not blame the individuals causing trouble rather than society?

I suppose on some level an individual rape or robbery or any crime for that matter can be said to be 'society's fault' to some degree but ok, if you want to address it on the societal level maybe come up with some ideas for solutions.

Expecting criminals to stop being criminals just because you're angry... well, its just not an effective strategy, if they gave a damn about your feelings/boundaries they wouldn't be criminals in the first place.

I'd be all for educating men & women about rape & rape prevention as early as elementary school (maybe 3rd or 4th grade).

I think part of the problem with society is that people are so self-absorbed that they don't even notice abuse when it happens. Women very close to me have confided that sexual abuse went on for months & they didn't trust their caregivers enough to even tell them about it.

If there's on thing I hope everyone on this thread can agree on its that when someone, especially a child, mentions something inappropriate has happened it should be acted on immediately. Honestly, I think anyone who allows abuse to happen while doing nothing should be almost as liable as the perpetrator.