When Genocide is Permissible

I'm not really invested in either side of the Israel/Palestine conflict, but as a point of general/academic interest, I pose this question:

What is the appropriate response when threatened with genocide from another group? Invasion and Occupation? Not invasion but targeting military installations only? A stern letter to their chief of state?
 
Rocket attacks kill fewer people than peanut allergies while their launching sites are being systematically bombed. Also, peanut allergies don't traumatize millions of people and shut down half of a country. Or plan massacres on Rosh Hashanah.
The Israelis make a habit of watching Iron Dome blow up rockets. That's not "traumatized." Iron Dome intercepts the vast majority of Hamas's clumsy attempts to shell Israel. In fact, the Israeli attacks on Gaza have killed more Israelis in a few days than rockets have in years, not to mention hundreds if not thousands of Palestinians. Israel's actions are inconsistent with those of a country seeking to minimize its death toll and are entirely consistent with the actions of a country led by politicians who want to get re-elected by looking tough.

If Netanyahu actually wanted to protect Israeli lives, he'd ignore the rockets and cease illegal settlement. This would save the lives of soldiers, who would no longer be in harm's way. It would help rebuild Israel's image and improve relations with other countries. And if Hamas continued to attack Israel, the Palestinian cause would start to lose international support, especially without the excuse of retaliation against illegal settlement.

Netanyahu does not care about such things.
 
People in 'the west' (US and UK) hate to hear about Iraq because it calls for acknowledging responsibility. As horrible as the Hussein regime might have been, kicking it over has not made things demonstrably better...in fact it's pretty easy to argue that it has made most things worse.

Yes I agree and in fact that is the point I was trying to make. People want to ignore Iraq because of the disastrous Iraq war.
 
If you are in Amurica, then you are invested in the Israeli side of the conflict to the tune of about $8 billion annually.
 
The Israelis make a habit of watching Iron Dome blow up rockets. That's not "traumatized."

Not by Tel Aviv. But I have an extensive family down south, and I don't need an Internet Expert telling me that they aren't traumatized. I recall children being evacuated out of one kibbutz out of the fear that Hamas would dig a tunnel to send fighters there (which they have attempted, twice).

Iron Dome intercepts the vast majority of Hamas's clumsy attempts to shell Israel. In fact, the Israeli attacks on Gaza have killed more Israelis in a few days than rockets have in years, not to mention hundreds if not thousands of Palestinians.

That's why all the wars have begun with Israelis attacks on multiple Hamas installations. The first priority is putting them on the defensive.

If Netanyahu actually wanted to protect Israeli lives, he'd ignore the rockets and cease illegal settlement.

So you think the death toll would remain low with Hamas shooting rockets off a hill five miles away from Tel Aviv? Whatever the intentions of the PA, they can't control their own people.

And if Hamas continued to attack Israel, the Palestinian cause would start to lose international support, especially without the excuse of retaliation against illegal settlement.

Isael's international image has not harmed it to any real extent (and it has decades of experience with international boycotts). The problem is, no country is really interested in seeing the occupation end. It isn't a geopolitical issue outside of the Middle East; only a political one. And the Arab countries are actually very afraid of a Palestinian state. Jordan and now Egypt and Saudi Arabia are basically allies. So I'm afraid I can't see any incentive for Israel to back down.
 
Isael's international image has not harmed it to any real extent (and it has decades of experience with international boycotts). The problem is, no country is really interested in seeing the occupation end. It isn't a geopolitical issue outside of the Middle East; only a political one. And the Arab countries are actually very afraid of a Palestinian state. Jordan and now Egypt and Saudi Arabia are basically allies. So I'm afraid I can't see any incentive for Israel to back down.

Every Arab state is kept in check by the USA, some more, some less, but especially Saudi Arabia which is the number one customer of the number one arms dealer...even bigger than Israel. If Israel lost US support not only are the weapons cut off but without that check on the neighbors you wouldn't find an empty seat on a flight out of Tel Aviv 24/7/365. So it might be wise, if 'we don't care about international image' is anything close to an official position, for you to advocate for cooling that bluster down a bit. The younger generation of Americans seems pretty much inclined to leave you swinging already, and Israel needs to think longer term than they seem to be.
 
How many people remember when they were children and at playgrounds they had bomb shelters for safety? But we actually have people apologising for Hamas on the account that Israel has an effective defense system and thus in reality Hamas are no threat. That is just crazy talk.
 
Why do you resort to binary "all-or-nothing" conclusions? I don't think anyone here is saying that Israel should sit back and do nothing about the threat of rocket fire from Gaza.
One irony is that you are those like you are all or nothing guys too, because you only see the deaths of people as a result of Israel's action and thus you criticise Israel for responding to Hamas attacks. The only way Israel can not kill civilians is to nothing, there is no alternative, since the actions they are taking were of a higher standard than any army in the world ha taken and yet thy get flak for it, so if I were in the Israeli cabinet, I would just say use the full power we have to eliminate any threat.

Lets assume that Israel doesn't fire upon any Hamas positions that are close to civilian populations. Do you know what you are asking Israel to do? Quite frankly you are basically saying they cannot respond to any Hamas attack since all of them come from civilian populations even when there is plenty of space for Hamas to operate outside of civilian populations. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_israel_palestinians/maps/html/population_settlements.stm
gaza_population_nov05.gif

As you can see there are plenty of pockets within the Gaza Strip that have limited population that would be ideal for Hamas to fight from, if they were honourable, but they aren't, so they fight from within the civilian population and you say that Israel cannot cause civilian deaths, then as a result you are effectively saying that Israel cannot attack Hamas positions, because doing so will result in civilians killed. But lets take the example of how one drone attack by the US killed 13 people. So if Israel killed that many people every strike, then the death toll would be approximately 65,000, since Israel has launched close to 5,000 missile strikes on Hamas positions and yet we have a relatively small number of people killed as a result. Israel could have done it so much differently if they were going after civilian, but the fact of the matter is this, Israel went after Hamas and other terror organisations and thus the blood of the civilians is on Hamas and the other terror organisations because they are the ones who put them at risk, not Israel, since it has a legitimate target under international law to go after launch sites.

That said, consider that the rockets fired from Gaza aren't resulting in hundreds of deaths of Israeli citizens. Partly due to the nature of the rockets themselves, and also Iron Dome. It's been a modest success, intercepting rockets that could have threatened Israeli citizens. That's awesome, and I'm glad the system is working*.

*EDIT: The rest of my post is definitely crossing a grey line, as there is quite a robust debate over the effectiveness of IronDome. I certainly don't know who has the right numbers, but here's sentiment that I find compelling:

Source: http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/08/05/iron-domes-success-in-israel-is-ironclad/
The problem is that you are ignoring the intent of the rockets. It doesn't matter if the rockets get stopped, which in itself is a marvellous achievement and yet Israel is getting criticised for making such an advance to defend its citizens. :crazyeye: Even the UN has criticised Israel and the US for supporting Israel in its ability to defend itself via the Iron Dome. That is just absolute rubbish and shows how complicit the UN is with Hamas and the fact that it allows it to use it's own buildings for military purposes. The UN should be angry at Hamas for firing from the vicinity of its buildings, but we don't hear that at all and some how only Israel is at fault if Hamas fires from protected sites.

The few rockets that haven't been intercepted were determined to be not worth intercepting as they'd land in unpopulated areas. Sounds like a good cost/benefit calculation to me.

So Israel is routinely intercepting these "threats", neutralizing them, yet still sees the need to accept hundreds and hundreds of innocent civilian casualties in order to eliminate a threat that's already being handled nearly perfectly. That's the immorality here, this is the reason Israel is harming itself more than it's harming Gaza.

If there were no Iron Dome I'd likely agree that the IDF has a moral obligation to the citizens of Israel to prempt a rocket launch, even if that means some innocent bystanders happen to die in the assault. But the way things are now, Israel doesn't need to bomb a hospital, school, or apartment building just because a rocket was launched from the courtyard. Because that rocket will be neutralized before it is able to inflict any (non-monetary) harm on Israel.

Yet they kill the civilians anyway.

That's the problem - Israel's response is entirely disproportionate to the threat. The threat of rockets is very low owing to Iron Dome and the nature of the rockets themselves.

Every rocket has the potential to kill Israeli citizens, do you think Israel's primary concern should be protecting them? Do you think that it is okay to fire rockets at will on civilian populations? Why is Israel being criticised for protecting its citizens from such random attacks?

Again you are playing the fallacy that just because they don't cause direct harm, they aren't a threat. If Israel were going after civilians, why aren't there 75% of the victims women and children, considering that is the demographical make up of the civilian population and yet according to the Palestinians we see 75% of those killed are adult male. That is an inverse of the civilian population, so Israelis definitely targeting a certain group of people and it is most certainly not the general population. Based on Israeli source they say they have got over 900 operatives and of the rest still half of them could be militant killed. That makes the ratio of civilians killed to militant of less that 1:1. Find me any modern war where any army gets close to a 50/50 ratio of civilians killed to the legitimate targets? The simply fact is that Israel places great care on limiting civilians casualties and the fact that any die is a result of Hamas and the other terror organisations. The first goal is to protect your national interests. That does mean going after places where attacks come from and the people who fire them and their stockpiles. In any war civilians will get killed and that is the truth of war. Hamas started this fight and they knew full well what was going to happen and that is why they are to blame for the deaths and not Israel. Israel left Gaza in 2005 and only closed the borders when it became apparent that Hamas had no intentions of living peacefully with Israel and just constantly and indiscriminately fire from Gaza. I know of no nation that would put up with this behaviour, so why does Israel have to put up with this?
 
I can't follow any further into this irrational mess. Blocked. First time ever. Congratulations.
 
The Israelis make a habit of watching Iron Dome blow up rockets. That's not "traumatized." Iron Dome intercepts the vast majority of Hamas's clumsy attempts to shell Israel. In fact, the Israeli attacks on Gaza have killed more Israelis in a few days than rockets have in years, not to mention hundreds if not thousands of Palestinians. Israel's actions are inconsistent with those of a country seeking to minimize its death toll and are entirely consistent with the actions of a country led by politicians who want to get re-elected by looking tough.

If Netanyahu actually wanted to protect Israeli lives, he'd ignore the rockets and cease illegal settlement. This would save the lives of soldiers, who would no longer be in harm's way. It would help rebuild Israel's image and improve relations with other countries. And if Hamas continued to attack Israel, the Palestinian cause would start to lose international support, especially without the excuse of retaliation against illegal settlement.

Netanyahu does not care about such things.

Oh my, you're seriously saying that Israel should just let Hamas keep firing rockets and do nothing? Except shoot down the rockets maybe?

And then what? Hope that Hamas, I dunno, goes bankrupt one day or something? Hey, it could work. Trouble is that Iran is funding them, so waiting for them to run out of money could take a while. And if Israel were to do nothing but shoot down rockets...a Qassam rocket costs $500, while an Iron Dome interception costs $20,000 each (and $95,000 according to one source), so it is far more cost-effective for Hamas to fire these rockets than it is for Israel to shoot them down. In fact Israel would probably run out of money before Hamas did.

But hey, it could work.
 
Oh my, you're seriously saying that Israel should just let Hamas keep firing rockets and do nothing? Except shoot down the rockets maybe?

I think what Phrossack, I and others are saying is that Israel should stop bombing Gaza. There are several reasons for this:

1) The rockets do very little damage and cause very few casualties. Because:
a) The rockets are primitive and inaccurate.
b) Iron dome.

2) The Israeli strikes do a lot of damage and cause many casualties, most of them civilians. Even if we assume that Israel doesn't intend to kill civilians for the sake of argument, it's still a completely disproportionate response.

3) The number of rockets launched increased from 10s to 1000s during the Israeli bombing campaign, proving it to be completely ineffective in its stated aim.

4) It makes Israel lose support internationally. Decent people find it hard to accept civilians being slaughtered in this way.

And then what? Hope that Hamas, I dunno, goes bankrupt one day or something? Hey, it could work. Trouble is that Iran is funding them, so waiting for them to run out of money could take a while

This is based on a false assumption. If you look at number of rockets actually launched (it has been posted in this thread) then you will see the problem with this argument.
 
Note that the NATO bombings of Serbia had a far larger civilian/combatant death ratio than the current Israeli bombings. Just by comparison, the NATO countries probably killed up to 6000 Serb civilians, and killed around 1000 Yugoslav soldiers. Also, note that no Yugoslav missiles were fired upon NATO civilians on NATO soil.

By comparison, Israel was attacked by Hamas as it fired missiles upon Israel's soil, and according to the IDF Operation Protective Edge killed 900 civilians and 900 combatants. However, even according to Palestinian sources, the total death toll would be the same with civilian/combatant ratio 3:1. So generously for the NATO, 6:1 by NATO on Yugoslavia vs 3:1 by the IDF on Gaza Strip. And I shamefully admit my country (the Netherlands) participated in it. It is not just a matter of whatabout NATO-bombing-Serbia, since it was objectively much worse, yet we still have the guts to foulmouth Israel on doing something lesser.

We (citizens of NATO countries) all ought to apologise to Serbia for doing something utterly terrible and then still think we have a moral high-ground.
 
I have to ponder in regards to the "Trauma" that Israeli's face due to rocket attacks, is that not overshadowed by say, having your home destroyed by the Israelis, if you're Palestinian?

Or having members of your family killed, for being Palestinian?

Or your own life being constantly at risk because you're wrong from the wrong side of the border?

I mean i get that being rocketted is traumatic, but let's not downplay the fact that in the last few weeks people have either lost their homes, entire families and even lives.

Now that is traumatic.
 
I have to ponder in regards to the "Trauma" that Israeli's face due to rocket attacks, is that not overshadowed by say, having your home destroyed by the Israelis, if you're Palestinian?

Or having members of your family killed, for being Palestinian?

Or your own life being constantly at risk because you're wrong from the wrong side of the border?

I mean i get that being rocketted is traumatic, but let's not downplay the fact that in the last few weeks people have either lost their homes, entire families and even lives.

Now that is traumatic.

:rolleyes: People who are killed don't have trauma :rolleyes:

And before you mention their relatives: they will be killed too :rolleyes:
 
What is the appropriate response when threatened with genocide from another group? Invasion and Occupation? Not invasion but targeting military installations only? A stern letter to their chief of state?

Sufficient defensive spending to ensure a Phyric Victory.

Targeted counter-strikes can be appropriate, given the level of hostilities initiated against you.

I don't even think 'genocide' is the triggerpoint for this type of defensiveness. Just being generally afraid of being murdered seems sufficient.
 
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