Which English Kings are generally considered "the best."

I maintain that she, by virtue of living in England, speaking English, etc. qualifies exceptionally well as being English.

The House of Windsor is distantly German in the male line.

Karalysia, Richard II never appears in Blackadder to my knowledge. Anyway, he really wasn't a warmonger at all.
 
Really? I would have thought that Elizabeth II, while she is the Queen of Great Britain, is both English and British (and, for that matter, also Scottish and Welsh). Therefore, to counter-nitpick, she is not the Queen of England, but is an English monarch.

However, I admit that I'm probably being a little Anglocentric.



She is not English. The House of Windsor is German. England is a part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which makes Elizabeth II sovereign over England, even though this is not her title.

Well the thing is... in all nitpickingness. The position "King of England" hasn't existed since 1707 when it was abolished for King of Great Britain. Elizabeth II may be sovereign over the Ceremonial counties of England but she was never given the title "Queen of England" and hence cannot claim to be an English Queen. She can claim to be an English Queen in the sense that "English" is an adjective describing her descent from her mother's English side.

This is silly. Only on Civfanatics.
 
She is not English. The House of Windsor is German. England is a part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which makes Elizabeth II sovereign over England, even though this is not her title.

That is absurd: she was born and raised in England. That makes her English, irrespective of where her parents came from, let alone where their parents came from. The idea that you are the same nationality as your ancestors, not of where you yourself are actually from, is an idea I would associate with the BNP. Being descended from Germans doesn't stop someone from being English any more than being descended from Normans or Saxons or anyone else does.

Who is the hairy, bearded, loud, manly King who's the father of Harry and Edmund?

The fictional King Richard IV, one of the real-life princes in the tower who, it is explained in the opening episode of Blackadder, were not murdered by Richard III after all.
 
The thread is about English monarchs, and there is no implication at all in the title or OP that this designation stops when the "Kingdom of England" as a theoretical political entity ceases to exist.

Elizabeth II is a monarch and she rules England. Therefore, while in theory she is no "Queen of England", no-one else is, and she very certainly is both English and a monarch, making her an English monarch.

Moreover, re-reading the OP, I think I'll address the question of Albert the Great and Edward III. I'd say that Albert the Great is one of the lesser-known kings, since he was a Saxon, but anyone would think he was "great" just by looking at his nickname. Edward III did nothing much (or did he?) except fighting a war in France which his successors inevitably lost.

EDIT: Thanks, IdiotsOpposite
 
Did the Black Prince ever become a king?

Also, would anyone call Alfred the Great a great king, considering that he helped out Mercia (I think it was Mercia) a lot, keeping it together against the Danes?

Also, spryllino, I think you mean "no implication" in your first sentence. Right?
 
The Black Prince was never King. He died before his father.

Alfred the Great, as I say, is not too well known, because the erroneous traditional listing of the kings invariably starts with the Norman Conquest in 1066. However, he was certainly an important figure in English history as he turned back the Danes.

The Danes conquered all of the old Kingdom of Mercia (which had been united with Essex for a considerable time) before Alfred or in the early part of Alfred's reign. This was the high point of the Danish invasion, and Alfred was only left with Devon and some of Somerset, Wiltshire, and Hampshire, and lived in a fort on the Isle of Athelney. Then Alfred managed to defeat the Danes with the militia from these counties, and reconquered Wessex and the south-western half of Mercia. This all meant that England (although Alfred never called himself "King of England") could survive, and it meant in the long run that future kings could reconquer the Danelaw.
 
I always thought that it was Henry VII who basically laid the foundations for England and later the UK's status as a superpower, because he essentially transformed it into a country ruled by the lords into a country run by the King.
 
Also, would anyone call Alfred the Great a great king, considering that he helped out Mercia (I think it was Mercia) a lot, keeping it together against the Danes?

Alfred is only considered a great king because Protestant monarchs of England needed someone other than a Catholic Briton to claim descent from.
 
So? The people of England considered themselves Saxon, and most were Protestant. The split from Rome made it unpopular for kings to claim descent from Arthur, a king considered a Catholic Briton. After the Anglican Church was founded the people believed that Saxons were good Protestants, and they themselves were no way related to Britons.
 
This all meant that England (although Alfred never called himself "King of England")...
He did, however, call himself "King of the English", which was essentially equivalent at the time, popular monarchy being the norm. Granted, the title was never more than ceremonial- the "Kingdom of the English" essentially consisting of the Kingdom of Wessex and the vassal-kingdom of Saxon Mercia, and excluding all the English of Danelaw- but the proto-nationalist boast which it contained is not dissimilar to later popular styles, such as Napoleon's "Emperor of the French".

So? The people of England considered themselves Saxon, and most were Protestant. The split from Rome made it unpopular for kings to claim descent from Arthur, a king considered a Catholic Briton. After the Anglican Church was founded the people believed that Saxons were good Protestants, and they themselves were no way related to Britons.
It's true that much of the Romanticism surrounding Alfred was connected to the resurgence of a supposedly "Anglo-Saxon" ethnic identity and the rejection of the continental "Norman yoke", but I'm not sure that any English monarch ever claimed Arthurian lineage, at least not in anything but the broadest sense, and no more than Welsh, Breton and Scottish monarchs have. Indeed, the very Romanticism to which you refer was largely responsible for the re-emergence of Arthur as a British national icon, having been largely forgotten since the Medieval French romances from which he was known fell out of fashion. His revival was generally apolitical and romantic, and was not, as far as I know, ever contrasted with that as Alfred's. If it ever gained political undertones, they were quite instep with those of Alfred- a thoroughly British, Christian and moral king combating heathen tyranny for the good of his people- themes quite popular in Victorian romanticism.
 
It's true that much of the Romanticism surrounding Alfred was connected to the resurgence of a supposedly "Anglo-Saxon" ethnic identity and the rejection of the continental "Norman yoke", but I'm not sure that any English monarch ever claimed Arthurian lineage, at least not in anything but the broadest sense, and no more than Welsh, Breton and Scottish monarchs have. Indeed, the very Romanticism to which you refer was largely responsible for the re-emergence of Arthur as a British national icon, having been largely forgotten since the Medieval French romances from which he was known fell out of fashion. His revival was generally apolitical and romantic, and was not, as far as I know, ever contrasted with that as Alfred's. If it ever gained political undertones, they were quite instep with those of Alfred- a thoroughly British, Christian and moral king combating heathen tyranny for the good of his people- themes quite popular in Victorian romanticism.

Henry II made it his purpose to have the people realize there was a King Arthur and the Angevins were his descendents. He "rediscovered" the lost tomb of King Arthur and used his "Arthurian descent" to make his campaigns against Wales and Scotland legitimate to the Pope. His grandson, Arthur, was even intended to take the throne as Arthur II.

Others instead of claiming descent claimed to be reincarnations of Arthur, James I of England, and VI of Scotland claimed to fulfill Merlin's prophecy of Arthur being reborn. But as Britain turned from Catholiscm to becoming Protestant, he instead started praising his Anglo-Saxon blood.
 
@ Traitorfish: others called Alfred "King of the English", but he himself only ever used the title "King of Wessex" or "King of the West Saxons". It was Athelstan (or maybe Edward the Elder? I'm not quite sure) who actually thought of himself as ruler of a single unified country.

@ Cynovolans: What you say is interesting, but I find it slightly doubtful. Could you
a) give us a source, and
b) explain the connection between the difference between Celts and Saxons (who were both Catholic) and the difference between Catholics and Protestants?
 
[Cynovolans] This sounds very strange to me. The distinction between Celtic/British and Anglo-Saxon has never, to my knowledge, been associated with the distinction between Catholic and Protestant. I don't see why the switch to Protestantism in England should have led any monarch to wish to be identified with a great Saxon king rather than with a great Celtic/British king. On the contrary, one would have thought that the Celtic Arthur would have been preferable - from this point of view - to the Saxon Alfred, given that Alfred lived after the time of the Synod of Whitby which brought English church practices in line with Rome. As a Celt, Arthur would presumably (assuming he was real) have been associated with the somewhat different Celtic church practices and therefore, from a post-Reformation point of view, have been less Catholic than Alfred.

Apart from all this, the popular shift from Catholicism to Protestantism occurred before James I anyway, under Elizabeth. So if James really changed his patron from Arthur to Alfred in response to the rise of Protestantism, he was a bit behind the times in doing so. (I don't know anything about this ideological change on the part of James though, so I too would be interested in more information about it.)
 
Henry II made it his purpose to have the people realize there was a King Arthur and the Angevins were his descendents. He "rediscovered" the lost tomb of King Arthur and used his "Arthurian descent" to make his campaigns against Wales and Scotland legitimate to the Pope. His grandson, Arthur, was even intended to take the throne as Arthur II.
I think you may mean Henry VII, and it was his son, not his grandson. Regardless, that represents the quirk of a particular monarch, rather than a habitual claim of the British monarchy. It was an attempt to play his Welsh and Cambro-Norman ancestry in his favour, and to style himself as a comparable unifier of and protector of Britain, rather than any assertion of formal legitimacy, such things traditionally being traced to William I. A semi-legendary king, while lending emotive weight to his debated ascension to the throne, was no match for contemporary law and force of arms.

Others instead of claiming descent claimed to be reincarnations of Arthur, James I of England, and VI of Scotland claimed to fulfill Merlin's prophecy of Arthur being reborn. But as Britain turned from Catholiscm to becoming Protestant, he instead started praising his Anglo-Saxon blood.
I've not heard this before, and, frankly, it seems questionable; reincarnation is a belief which any Christian, Catholic or Protestant, would be inherently hostile towards. There is a reason, after all, why the Christianised Arthurian mythology holds that Arthur did not die at all, but lies "sleeping" on Avalon, much like many other Christianised forms of the King In the Mountain motif. I can perhaps see James drawing some comparisons between Arthur and himself, for similar reasons to Henry, particularly given his preference for the legally invalid title "King of Great Britain", but this is merely one eccentricity among many, and from an already rather eccentric king.
Furthermore, James I was a devout Protestant long before the Union of Crowns, and would be unlikely to make claims which had the Catholic overtones you claim, and his rule long pre-dated the Romanticism that raised Alfred to his current status, and at least a generation before the concept of the "Norman yoke" was properly established in English culture. It came into it's own as a reaction to the absolutism and Anglo-Catholicism of Charles and his descendants, but was not strongly pronounced in the time of the more cautious James.

@ Traitorfish: others called Alfred "King of the English", but he himself only ever used the title "King of Wessex" or "King of the West Saxons". It was Athelstan (or maybe Edward the Elder? I'm not quite sure) who actually thought of himself as ruler of a single unified country.
I looked this up; it turns out that Alfred and Edward used the title "King of the Anglo-Saxons", in addition to "King of Wessex", and the title "King of the English" was first adopted by Athelstan. As I said, it was a largely ceremonial title, more of a boast than anything else, but it does reflect the succession of the Kingdom of the English from the Kingdom of Wessex, and Alfred's self-recognition that, while he may not have been the king of all the English, he was, himself, an English king.
 
@ Cynovolans: What you say is interesting, but I find it slightly doubtful. Could you
a) give us a source, and
b) explain the connection between the difference between Celts and Saxons (who were both Catholic) and the difference between Catholics and Protestants?

[Cynovolans] This sounds very strange to me. The distinction between Celtic/British and Anglo-Saxon has never, to my knowledge, been associated with the distinction between Catholic and Protestant. I don't see why the switch to Protestantism in England should have led any monarch to wish to be identified with a great Saxon king rather than with a great Celtic/British king. On the contrary, one would have thought that the Celtic Arthur would have been preferable - from this point of view - to the Saxon Alfred, given that Alfred lived after the time of the Synod of Whitby which brought English church practices in line with Rome. As a Celt, Arthur would presumably (assuming he was real) have been associated with the somewhat different Celtic church practices and therefore, from a post-Reformation point of view, have been less Catholic than Alfred.

I am getting my information from the book Saxons, Vikings, and Celts which deals mainly with the origins of the people of the British Isles. A few chapters are dedicated to how monarchs, and all of England, started looking towards the Anglo-Saxons as their origins instead of Britons. The theory "the Anglo-Saxon Wipeout" came to be, and according to it the Anglo-Saxons came killed the natives, then settled the country. Many English then believed that they were descendents of a superior, Germanic group of people.

The aligning of Protestants with Saxons was started by Henry VIII. At first he argued with the Papal States that he was descended from a British King, Brennius, that once captured the city of Rome, so he felt like the Pope was not high enough to order him or deny a divorce. The Pope didn't care much for his stories, so Henry split the church and changed from claiming descent from Britons to Saxons (which Henry may have thought Brennius was). Many years later, Saxons become known as a superior group of people.

The Protestant = Saxon has more to do with politics, and racial supremacy than anything else.

Apart from all this, the popular shift from Catholicism to Protestantism occurred before James I anyway, under Elizabeth. So if James really changed his patron from Arthur to Alfred in response to the rise of Protestantism, he was a bit behind the times in doing so. (I don't know anything about this ideological change on the part of James though, so I too would be interested in more information about it.)

I apologize I just filled that part in myself. It isn't exactly mentioned in the book why he changed, but I'm certain the Gunpowder Plot had a role in it.

I think you may mean Henry VII, and it was his son, not his grandson. Regardless, that represents the quirk of a particular monarch, rather than a habitual claim of the British monarchy. It was an attempt to play his Welsh and Cambro-Norman ancestry in his favour, and to style himself as a comparable unifier of and protector of Britain, rather than any assertion of formal legitimacy, such things traditionally being traced to William I. A semi-legendary king, while lending emotive weight to his debated ascension to the throne, was no match for contemporary law and force of arms.

No I do mean Henry II, and his grandson's name was Arthur. Henry II was using it just for his own favour, and making excuses for invading Scotland.

I've not heard this before, and, frankly, it seems questionable; reincarnation is a belief which any Christian, Catholic or Protestant, would be inherently hostile towards. There is a reason, after all, why the Christianised Arthurian mythology holds that Arthur did not die at all, but lies "sleeping" on Avalon, much like many other Christianised forms of the King In the Mountain motif. I can perhaps see James drawing some comparisons between Arthur and himself, for similar reasons to Henry, particularly given his preference for the legally invalid title "King of Great Britain", but this is merely one eccentricity among many, and from an already rather eccentric king.

Reincarnation is the wrong word, but Merlin's prophecy says Arthur will be reborn and rule Britain. James didn't literally say he was Arthur reborn, he just compared himself to Arthur.
 
@ Traitorfish: Yes, you're certainly right that Alfred was an English King, and I don't dispute that at all.

Henry II did have a grandson called Arthur, but Henry VII, as you say, sounds a more plausible candidate.

I continue to look forward to any explanation or source that you might offer us, Cynovolans. Your statements are certainly interesting if they are true.

EDIT: Crosspost. Answering in another post.
 
It all sounds rather like sophistic theological tosh to me. I don't think that Henry VIII's dubious theology ever actually turned out to be important to history. Furthermore, if Henry VIII had already transferred his dubious symbolism from Arthur to Alfred, there ought to have been no need for James I to do it again.

All the same, I somewhat doubt that it is the case that the entire idea of Alfred being generally regarded as a Great king, in the eyes of normal people, rests on Henry VIII's dodgy arguments. It seems to me to be the case that the only reason why Alfred the Great is considered Great, these days, is that he defeated the Danes and saved his kingdom; this is important because his kingdom was the foundation for the nations of England and the United Kingdom.
 
It all sounds rather like sophistic theological tosh to me. I don't think that Henry VIII's dubious theology ever actually turned out to be important to history. Furthermore, if Henry VIII had already transferred his dubious symbolism from Arthur to Alfred, there ought to have been no need for James I to do it again.

All the same, I somewhat doubt that it is the case that the entire idea of Alfred being generally regarded as a Great king, in the eyes of normal people, rests on Henry VIII's dodgy arguments. It seems to me to be the case that the only reason why Alfred the Great is considered Great, these days, is that he defeated the Danes and saved his kingdom; this is important because his kingdom was the foundation for the nations of England and the United Kingdom.

Henry VIII and James I never praised Alfred, Henry VIII praised Brennius the conqueror of Rome, and James I praised his Anglo-Saxon blood. It wasn't until later did people discover how great Alfred was.

And I'm just saying Alfred only became popular among modern English because Protestant monarchs of England needed a new idol. He does deserve to be called the Great for all his accomplishment.
 
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