While We Wait: Part 2

[North King]

Players don't get much input into NPCs either, and I don't remember you arguing against them. It's not essential for every significant event to be player controlled, indeed, that's not a very good idea.

 

[Symphony D.]

If seeing an assembled list of country names with random numbers, the order and quantity of which have no substantial cause or meaning next to it builds strong backstory to a game in your opinion, that's your call.

I just don't see why somebody would waste their time on something players aren't going to care about. I guess it might liven up diplomatic messages a little. Or something. "Whoo, Finland got 36 gold medals to your 22 all because I did nothing at all whatsoever! Suck it Russia!"

Harsh. How ever will Russia come back to Finland on that? Great use of 5 to 10 minutes of the moderator's time. Yeah...

Players don't get much input into NPCs either, and I don't remember you arguing against them. It's not essential for every significant event to be player controlled, indeed, that's not a very good idea.

Nice false analogy there. NPCs are not run by players, by their definition. Natural disasters are not caused by players, by their definition. Sporting events involving major countries, most of which will be played by players, generally do involve players, by definition. Therefore, if they are executed in game, they should involve player input.

Saying players shouldn't be involved in the Olympics, if they're going to appear, is about the same as saying players shouldn't be involved in the United Nations if it happens to be around, because not every significant event should be player controlled. Or government-sponsored domestic events. Or wars.

 

[North King]

Random lists are hardly what I was talking about, however, if you wish to conceptualize strange ideas and then project them onto me, feel free. In any case, a nation triumphing over the other in sports is hardly a matter of one player getting to brag to the other. In fact, I don't exactly see why players would brag to other players unless they had some sort of insecurity.

And I do not believe my analogy was false. Indeed, you turned around and used a false analogy of your own.

The Olympics are hardly like the UN; the UN involves the diplomatic corps of a nation, and only very loose definitions would say the Olympics involve something similar.

 

[Symphony D.]

Random lists are hardly what I was talking about, however, if you wish to conceptualize strange ideas and then project them onto me, feel free.

Then tell me good sir as to how you intend to implement the Olympics as the only other meaningful way I can foresee portraying it otherwise is as a fairly lengthy story or news article describing the events, their competitors, and their respective performances... the sort of exercise that usually falls to a player to write.

In fact, I don't exactly see why players would brag to other players unless they had some sort of insecurity.

And I do not believe my analogy was false. Indeed, you turned around and used a false analogy of your own.

The Olympics are hardly like the UN; the UN involves the diplomatic corps of a nation, and only very loose definitions would say the Olympics involve something similar.

The bulk of Olympics teams are government sponsored, and therefore their operations, much like those of diplomats, do in fact fall under the aegis of government control. So no, it is not at all a false analogy, as theoretically the government is spending quite a bit of time, effort, and money to train these athletes to represent their respective country in a positive light (eg: Chinese Olympic recruitment programs starting at age 3), usually for the express purpose of bragging, eg: 1980 USSR vs. USA hockey match, 1975 Bobby Fischer vs. Anatoly Karpov, etc.

Yours remains the comparison of something that is always totally governered by moderator fiat--an NPC--to the governing by fiat of the activities of what is typically a government subsizied group which would therefore be well within the bounds of a player to write about for their particular country--not that being in the government or out of it stops players from writing about things at all, nor that it limits their actions in describing them either.

For someone who is pushing for a "Pure" NES dedicated to stories, your position in this argument strikes me as highly entertaining.

 

[North King]

Then tell me good sir as to how you intend to implement the Olympics as the only other meaningful way I can foresee portraying it otherwise is as a fairly lengthy story or news article describing the events, their competitors, and their respective performances... the sort of exercise that usually falls to a player to write.

Oh, good sir, I was hoping you would put your brainpower to that task. Or, perhaps, leave it to be decided by the moderators in question?

The bulk of Olympics teams are government sponsored, and therefore their operations, much like those of diplomats, do in fact fall under the aegis of government control. So no, it is not all a false analogy, as theoretically the government is spending quite a bit of time, effort, and money to train these athletes to represent their respective country in a positive light (eg: Chinese Olympic recruitment programs starting at age 3), usually for the express purpose of bragging, eg: 1980 USSR vs. USA hockey match, 1975 Bobby Fischer vs. Anatoly Karpov, etc.

Oh, but you see, it is a false analogy, for diplomatic corps do exactly what a nation's government tells them to. Sports teams would like to, but really cannot, after all, do everything. Now, yes, you could specifically order into these areas (and the mere fact that a government does interfere lends credence to the idea that mere sports competitions are indeed quite significant), and if you wished to do so, then by all means, I see no reason to stop the players doing so. Of course, that would probably be better left to their subordinates in the governmental bureaucracy, but the excellent thing about NESing is its flexibility.

 

[North King]

For someone who is pushing for a "Pure" NES dedicated to stories, your position in this argument strikes me as highly entertaining.

Said NES does indeed have moderator involvement, and the moderator typically should decide (impartially) what happens between players. While I'm sure most players would be mature enough to write on their own what happens in a World Cup, for example, that's not always the case, and the exceptions are what necessitates moderator involvement in the first place. Indeed, I see no way my original position (that the moderator should mention sports competitions in an update) is at all inconsistent with story NESing.

 

[Symphony D.]

Oh, good sir, I was hoping you would put your brainpower to that task. Or, perhaps, leave it to be decided by the moderators in question?

Dedicated moderators have repeatedly opted for the former solution, thereby proving my point that it is a useless gesture to engage in such a trifling event, because as stated, it boils down to a list of numbers and countries. If you have some superior method that does not involve copious amounts of text, I remain waiting to hear it, since you have elected not to share should you have one.

As for my solution, I already expended my brainpower and told you: let the players do the grunt work, and generate figures based on that. Imagine that, a factual basis for performance where output is based on work input! Shocking!

(and the mere fact that a government does interfere lends credence to the idea that mere sports competitions are indeed quite significant)

I do so enjoy how you always accuse me of misrepresenting your points yet you never fail to do the exact same to mine without so much as batting an eyelash. I have stated any sporting event decided solely by a moderator is useless because the player will have no attachment to it, having had absolutely nothing to do with its outcome, thank you.

Of course, that would probably be better left to their subordinates in the governmental bureaucracy, but the excellent thing about NESing is its flexibility.

Here's another one of those willful misinterpretations:

Government Efficiency: Excellent. Multiply government efficiency x2 for Gold Medal Yield.

Or, again, one could encourage players to write to influence outcomes instead of just submitting lists of orders like "Do well at the Olympics or torture the Athletes" and never doing anything creative. Oh, wait.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Okay, the first time, I asked for your assistance! I had an alliance with you, and all you and the Ottomans had was a "Treaty of Friendship"! For crying out loud, in the beginning of the game, I wrote one story because I was pissed at not getting a country and after a few hours the whole world's on my side! You were the reason my country even existed! I sez to you, "Hey, Panda, can you help me turn the Ottomans into tiny Raisinet-sized chunks?" Of course, you say "no"...for whatever reason...maybe because the Ottomans were also fighting the Russians... The second time, though, I was trying and failing to stop you from ruling the world. That was a real stab. You probably wouldn't have let me survive for very long anyway...

And this is why I've turned against playing the turks. This forum is overloaded with Hellenophiles and resurgent Byzantines!

Just to warn against any ideas, should staznes live (SENDORDERSYOUBUMS!), there will be a ratio of fifty police officers for every civilian .



*Ahem*
For all ye lazy bums who have failed to send orders for staznes, consider this your official warning. Continuance in failing to send orders will result in a massive attack by allied Penguin/Polar Bear/Panda/Otter mercanary armies and a descent into complete and utter madnes.

Penguin forces on the ready.

@Current Subject- Laaaadies and Geeeentlemen! A battle of the titans once again! Neither will give an inch! Gasp at mighty blows, clever points, posts and ripostes, and humorous wordplay as our two gladiators attempt to prove the other to be a fool!!!

*****

All in good fun, of course.

 

[Symphony D.]

While I'm sure most players would be mature enough to write on their own what happens in a World Cup, for example, that's not always the case, and the exceptions are what necessitates moderator involvement in the first place.

Actually, given this, it sort of seems we're shooting past each other, as that is my basic point: the moderator has to wind up doing the final summary regardless. The point of disagreement then would seem to be that I think it's essential that the players do the basics if it's to be done at all, whereas this and the general character of NK's argument seems to be that their participation is optional and that the events should be done regardless.

I could be wrong on the point, but as I see it that's the fundamental disagreement in the issue, which isn't totally mutually exclusive, and we're both famously stubborn, so this isn't going anywhere, and there you go.

 

[Dachs]

And this is why I've turned against playing the turks. This forum is overloaded with Hellenophiles and resurgent Byzantines!

I was the original, old bean. LittleBoots and Thlayli aren't my fault. (Although I remember at the very end of ITNES I IT III Thlayli started PMing me about the general situation, lurking around etc...which was sort of cool.)

Penguin forces on the ready.

If they mattered, I would be shaking in my boots. Since penguins seem to be more interested in a random propaganda campaign in the beginning of the 21st century than actually winning the war, I'm not too worried.

Any "false sense of security" arguments are silly.

 

[LittleBoots]

Then again, Dachs, you and Thlayli seem to possess an approximately equal love for the Romans that I do not share. I mean, I like them, but Greece is my true love

 

[Luckymoose]

Littleboots! I call you to play Hanover in my NES. It is quite strong.

 

[North King]

I do so enjoy how you always accuse me of misrepresenting your points yet you never fail to do the exact same to mine without so much as batting an eyelash. I have stated any sporting event decided solely by a moderator is useless because the player will have no attachment to it, having had absolutely nothing to do with its outcome, thank you.

Well, it's good someone enjoys misrepresentation of their own points.

Anyway, who said it would be solely decided by the moderator? That's quite a curious assumption; I only said it should be mentioned in updates.

Here's another one of those willful misinterpretations:

Government Efficiency: Excellent. Multiply government efficiency x2 for Gold Medal Yield.

Or, again, one could encourage players to write to influence outcomes instead of just submitting lists of orders like "Do well at the Olympics or torture the Athletes" and never doing anything creative. Oh, wait.

I again don't understand who you're arguing against. You seem to be quoting me, so I would normally take that to mean you're arguing against my points, but the content suggests otherwise...

 

[Thlayli]

Hey, that's right Dachs! I was just about ready to join as a Dacian rebellion, during that period they were vassalized by the Huns.

 

[das]

Funny how Finmaster managed without you, in the end.

Were you around back then? I thought you only appeared in the NES2 V preview thread.

 

[Thlayli]

Well, I had lurked for the last IT actually, before even posting in the NES forum.

 

[Insane_Panda]

Pah! Romans are fine and dandy, but my heart lies in Germany (from around 1871 onwards) and France.

 

[Oruc]

Its pretty annoying seeing the them faces in charge of the same places though. I mean i'm sick of seeing Byzantium now.

 

[North King]

Isn't it funny how different NES2 I was from the rest of the das series? Madagascar of all places was one of the leading world powers. In every other one, it's been some combination of France, England, Germany, Russia, the United States, and Japan...

 

[Israelite9191]

Its pretty annoying seeing the them faces in charge of the same places though. I mean i'm sick of seeing Byzantium now.

Here here! By now I've come to thoroughly despise the Byzantines, especially how they constantly show up in Fresh Starts when it is simply impossible for a state based on the Golden Horn to rise before the advent of aqueducts.