While We Wait: Part 2

[jalapeno_dude]

Sorry. By "win", I meant "conquer every other nation militarily".

...given what you've said, why don't you play more fresh starts?

 

[North King]

Isn't that more the fault of the players, rather than the scenario then? Not making the connection and giving it up is one thing, but a joy ride to destruction is something else entirely, and is entirely dependent on the maturity and commitment of the player, not the game type. That can happen in any scenario.

Again, there's nothing to stop anyone from repeating this same behavior--setting out to do maximum possible damage--in a Fresh Start. The connection only comes from the fact countries are player generated.I refuse to accept this possibility for two reasons; implying that players can only connect with a nation if they create it implies an extreme lack of imagination or flexibility on the part of all involved, and the resulting tunnel-vision of functional scenarios so created is extreme and unnecessarily limiting.

Ultimately I think this is more an indictment of the capability of players to behave in a semi-serious, or to put it more succinctly, in character fashion. The problem is universal to all game types. It is only more prevalent in non-FS types because the initial countries in those are already crafted to player preferences instead of being molded to them over time.

Of course it's the fault of the players, and not scenarios themselves, but certain scenarios attract different types of players (generally).

What you say about fresh starts (that one can wreck havoc there) is, to some degree true, yet generating a nation requires an immensity of effort, unparalleled by any required by an NES where the setting is already created. If you must create the setting, then you must have a mindset, and players will only bother to if they actually desire to create a great NES.

Naturally, of course, one can connect with nations in a historical or pre-created game. However, this type of game invites those of a less savory nature, who won't bother to try to connect, so while you will have many who are indeed trying, there will be a few (jerks) who do not care about the greater whole and play for their own vulgar amusement.

So, yes, it's present everywhere, but in general, a fresh start does not draw the type of player who is moronic in that way, while a prefab setup does.

 

[North King]

...given what you've said, why don't you play more fresh starts?

Ah, the joys of not quoting people. If you mean me, then I do play fresh starts; indeed, that's just about all I play now. If you mean Symphony, he doesn't have the patience to see if an NES will last to create a nation through the non-boomstick ages. That's another problem, speaking of which... the fact that NESes these days usually fail miserably.

 

[Luckymoose]

Ah, the joys of not quoting people. If you mean me, then I do play fresh starts; indeed, that's just about all I play now. If you mean Symphony, he doesn't have the patience to see if an NES will last to create a nation through the non-boomstick ages. That's another problem, speaking of which... the fact that NESes these days usually fail miserably.

My NES is doing quite well I would have you know.

 

[North King]

My NES is doing quite well I would have you know.

That wasn't an invitation for people to come up proclaiming the NESes that do well. An NES doing well is not supposed to be unusual; it shouldn't even need to be noted.

 

[Luckymoose]

That wasn't an invitation for people to come up proclaiming the NESes that do well. An NES doing well is not supposed to be unusual; it shouldn't even need to be noted.

It's just you act as if NEW mods fail miserably. When in fact a lot of them do well. Only the ones who try to open a NES as soon as they join fail so fast.

 

[Birdjaguar]

map for turn 1

 

[Symphony D.]

...given what you've said, why don't you play more fresh starts?

The setting is generally uninteresting to me, as I've stated countless times previously. You can only found Minoa or Carthage or Beijing so many times. Few ever get beyond this point, and so they don't hold my interest. I view it as being like the first few turns of a game of Civilization: repetitive, simplistic, and tiring. Imagine if you could only play the first 50 turns of a game over and over again and only got beyond that perhaps one time in ten.

It can be varied up a little with random maps (as LINESII, the most recent KalNES both of which I've mused on joining, or that Jason NES with multiple BTs, which I did join) but more often than not the result is the same: NES death. Most of the vaunted "originality" isn't very original either: see also the countless iterations of -tigot, or what have you.

It's nice every once and again, but I'm not willing to put in the kind of effort required to flesh out a brand new country when statistics indicate the NES will be killed in ten turns or less and my effort will be wasted. Call me crazy.

If you mean Symphony, he doesn't have the patience to see if an NES will last to create a nation through the non-boomstick ages.

Most people I know wouldn't be willing to go through about a year's worth of something they don't particularly enjoy to get to something they do if that something is as trivial as NESing. And yes, given the One Week/Update schedule, and even factoring in an IT/BT system, that is an optimistic time table for reaching about the Renaissance in a Fresh Start. To be frank, basic guns bore me too. I want lasers and railguns and UAVs. That's about two years worth of time progression in a Fresh Start. So I believe my lack of patience in the matter is not unjustified. Nevermind that rationally by the time you make it that far your first country will long since be dead and gone. A huge problem of Fresh Starts is that player countries rarely die. But I digress.

The only possible alternatives for my interests (and like-minded individuals) are therefore the following:

- Accelerated Fresh Start (Multiple BTs to Later Age)
- Developed Fresh Start (Some Calamity Resets Progress)
- Late Time Period Alternate-History (Imperial / Industrial+)
- Historical (Up to Present Day)

The first three, including the Alt-Hist, are vaguely self-regulating. Even games like NES2 V or NES2 VI develop a sort of "internal story" where after some time they function along a somewhat rational backdrop (or as rational as a NES can really be). This is made possible because the history is still somewhat vague and nebulous and not totally determined. Historical NESes are generally too well-defined to allow this "internal story" to develop without massive incongruity with the reality they started out from. Hence my general rejection of them as feasible.

 

[North King]

Most people I know wouldn't be willing to go through about a year's worth of something they don't particularly enjoy to get to something they do if that something is as trivial as NESing. And yes, given the One Week/Update schedule, and even factoring in an IT/BT system, that is an optimistic time table for reaching about the Renaissance in a Fresh Start. To be frank, basic guns bore me too. I want lasers and railguns and UAVs. That's about two years worth of time progression in a Fresh Start. So I believe my lack of patience in the matter is not unjustified.

I was not criticizing you; I was explaining. To each, his own: I enjoy the ancient eras, but I do not demand that everyone enjoy them.

 

[jalapeno_dude]

The setting is generally uninteresting to me, as I've stated countless times previously. You can only found Minoa or Carthage or Beijing so many times. Few ever get beyond this point, and so they don't hold my interest. I view it as being like the first few turns of a game of Civilization: repetitive, simplistic, and tiring. Imagine if you could only play the first 50 turns of a game over and over again and only got beyond that perhaps one time in ten.

That's where we differ. I've mostly lost interest in Civilization, and I almost never play beyond the first 50 turns. Though that's probably not the best example, given (at least Civ 3's) basic determinism once you've become the top power. I generally enjoy starting new nations and endowing them with structure, purpose, culture, etc. It only becomes boring, IMO, if you play the same way each time. Hence my annoyance with players who play only to dominate the world.

 

[ThomAnder]

Yes; I know a few players who always ally with each other, and a few who always go to war... I am guilty of this as well. It would make some sense in the era of kings, when rulers were personal friends at times, but normally it does not. The only solution I can see is having the player so invested in their nation, that they are determined to try and keep it alive, instead of throwing it away for "fun". This is why a successful fresh start is, in my opinion, the only true NES that will keep sanity.

Isn't this problem only evident in ages where globalization/colonialism/imperialism has occured? there's no point allying with people half way across the globe who doesn't have contact with you

 

[jalapeno_dude]

Isn't this problem only evident in ages where globalization/colonialism/imperialism has occured? there's no point allying with people half way across the globe who doesn't have contact with you

Doesn't stop people from trying to sign NAPs with each other, though...

 

[alex994]

I don't play to conquer or rule the world.

 

[Symphony D.]

Thank you for that stunning insight into the topic, alex.

 

[alex994]

You're most welcome. I don't even want global hegemony like some players do

 

[Symphony D.]

Yes, and either of those assertions has just so very much to do with the original topic of Historical NESes being defunct.

 

[Sheep]

I can see where Symphony is coming from in regards to fresh starts, however I still play them, mainly because you DONT know which one will reach greatness and the best neses that have been made (in my ancient and biased eyes) have been fresh starts namely rtor2, stjnes4 and stjnes5. (although the latter didnt last all the way through to modern times)

 

[Nuka-sama]

WW 3 will start soon in SheepNES in Taiwan.

 

[jeps]

Just because there are multiple isolated nuclear conflicts that start to threaten the world doesnt mean we will all get involved. We would like to point out that China's is seriously more stupid, getting upset over a NAME CHANGE and declaration that they arent the same nation (has been there since about same time as Israel - cant remember '48 or '49)

Also, Africa shall look sane and prosperous the way things are turning out.

 

[jalapeno_dude]

Actually, China's isn't that stupid. If you want to spark a nuclear war, Taiwan declaring independance is one of the best ways to do this.

Sheep, are you trying to destoy the world?