While We Wait: Part 4

[Angst]

So, nothing at all like the NES2 rules at all then?

I guess it depends on what you mean by "flaws," but the NES2 system, with its prepackaged divisions, effectively unimportant domestic benefits and supplementary statistics (population, infrastructure, etc), and linear economies, is pretty much always going to boil down to producing wars where the person with the most territory (and thus the biggest economy most of the time) wins the day, because that's what it's built to do. To me, that's a pretty huge flaw in and of itself, because it means there's only one really fulfilling way to play.

If you want to step away from that, you have to step (quite far) away from those rules.

This is one of the reasons why I like random events so much.

 

[Adrogans]

So, nothing at all like the NES2 rules at all then?

I guess it depends on what you mean by "flaws," but the NES2 system, with its prepackaged divisions, effectively unimportant domestic benefits and supplementary statistics (population, infrastructure, etc), and linear economies, is pretty much always going to boil down to producing wars where the person with the most territory (and thus the biggest economy most of the time) wins the day, because that's what it's built to do. To me, that's a pretty huge flaw in and of itself, because it means there's only one really fulfilling way to play.

If you want to step away from that, you have to step (quite far) away from those rules.

This is part of the reason I drifted away from NESing for a while. (the major portion was personal stuff). It just felt like everyone I started to play in was extremely difficult to play as a NES because everyone viewed it as a game to be won and so just got bigger and bigger thru war. But as always Symp states it so much more eloquently than I can.

 

[Abaddon]

Perhaps if people knew what awards there would be at the end of the NES, they would aim for different things.

As it stands the only way to "know" if you are "winning" is the stats and the maps.. which inevitably leads to conquest.

 

[Symphony D.]

Perhaps if people knew what awards there would be at the end of the NES, they would aim for different things.

That's... just bad. Saying "Hey you can win this" while keeping the rules the same or similar isn't a solution. Fixing the rules so doing "that" is rewarding and meaningful is.

An example of the shortfall: Japan was on track in the late 1980s to overtake the United States in GDP with a country about the size of Montana, a Defense Force which although quite capable, was of highly limited ground presence and based more or less entirely on its Naval and Air arms, and a population roughly equal to France and Germany together. It didn't quite make it because (long story short) necessary economic reforms were never taken and so the system overheated. Despite that, for more than a decade it was the second strongest economy on the planet, and is still a highly respectable third today.

There's no way to model that with the NES2 system short of making every city in the country an EC. And then, somebody else would probably just invade because lulz, the military is weak.

There needs to be a conjunction of a willful and adept moderator who can restrain players when they reach too far, and a well-rounded and flexible ruleset which gives the players many different paths to choose from when deciding what they want to do. Even with the first in place, the NES2 system does not meet the second by any stretch of the imagination.

NES2 is war, and it and anything like it will always be war.

 

[das]

Which is why the ruleset I am working on now is going to be done from the scratch.

 

[Abaddon]

how about this? I may going to trial something like it in my NES:

Every 10 turns there will be mini awards, in Diplomacy, Military, Culture, (an others yet undecided) The players who win these awards get a bonus to spend in something OTHER than the category they won it in.

The bonus won't be game breaking, but it will at least give players a reason to do something other than simply fight. By being in a different category than what they won it in also ensure they do not gain an unassailable lead in that field.

 

[Adrogans]

Cannot wait to see it das.

 

[Kozmos]

NES2 is war, and it and anything like it will always be war.

The way you just said that sounds like a huge turn on.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

And given the nature of Iceland, precious little opportunity to do so...

Well, once I've settled all of the harbour and arable regions of the coast, the interior is basically mine, even if it is empty.

Well give it another thousand years and he'll be able to reap all kinds of dividends genetic technology and low cost server farming

And still have lots of trouble with top-soil erosion and the resulting finicky agriculture keeping population really low!

Well, either that, or agricultural problems will encourage excess population to migrate out- some back to Scandinavia, some to that big island that the Hibernians discovered, and maybe even some beyond there- who knows?

 

[Symphony D.]

Well, either that, or agricultural problems will encourage excess population to migrate out- some back to Scandinavia, some to that big island that the Hibernians discovered, and maybe even some beyond there- who knows?

I keep having to throw this book called "Guns, Germs, and Steel" at people. The guy who wrote it wrote another one about the exact opposite subject: why societies die. It's called "Collapse". It paints a pretty good picture of why that didn't work going west when it was actually tried.

Boiled down, Vikings, and anyone remotely like them, aren't going to colonize America under virtually any possible circumstances. And anybody going to Greenland, unless they're willing to more or less become Inuit or synthesize their culture with them, is probably going to die, or their descendants are. If you make it to Nova Scotia, you're a step up, but there's nothing to export of real note, importing is very expensive, the locals outnumber you by quite a large fraction, and diseases take some time to do their dirty-work.

 

[Masada]

Symp don’t be so negative... genocide was never done in a day it takes time to plan and execute (and yes Vikings are not likely to ever stay in America at that stage of history).

Collapse was quite a good read; some of his conjectures are for me a touch bizarre, his writing on Easter Island got emasculated by the relevant experts on the Island, it was apparently an old and long discredited theory, or significant parts of it. I remember a certain speaker who politely stated that if his conjectures were so then most if not all of the pacific islands should have long ceased to support human life, by the measures of habitation he provided.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Trust me Sym, I know Icelandic History, I know that the island's resources are very limited for my particularl society- I did a lot of research before joining as Eldsland. At any rate, I'll just make my points:

I roleplay- forming a Norse Empire in the New World is not my plan. I don't even know about it. All I know is that there is a large, hostile land somewhere to my west, which the Hibernians failed to settle. At any rate, I don't know that it's about to get warmer, and I also don't know that it will later cool down again, resulting in the extinction of any European Settlers in the area.

Eldsland knows better than to get involved in European affairs- the last time it did, Caerix, Hibernia and the Picts slaughtered most of the Norse settlers on the island. Thus, it is unlikely to try and involve itself in those affairs unless situations change rather dramatically. As our population reaches the carrying capacity, we'll most likely realise that we cannot sustain our existence on the island. Given with our seafaring tradition, the discovery of new lands is very likely. Settlement, however, is a very different matter. At any rate, we'll see what happens if AFSNES ever continues.

 

[Masada]

The fishing is good

 

[Symphony D.]

Symp don’t be so negative... genocide was never done in a day it takes time to plan and execute (and yes Vikings are not likely to ever stay in America at that stage of history).

One, stop telling me how to think--I don't appreciate it. Two, bacteria and viruses are never planned, sir. Except for those guys with the smallpox laden blankets, maybe.

On a different subject entirely, here's a good piece of text with which to beat the hell out of hippies who argue the atomic bombings of Japan were Unbearable Things® (as opposed to simply the lesser of two evils), should any of you ever be required to do so. One particularly poignant fact he never mentions is that WWII was the last time the Purple Heart medal was ever produced--they still haven't run out the stockpiles produced for Operation Olympic in all the wars since. Even today there are still around 100,000 left.

 

[MooseWarrior]

One, stop telling me how to think--I don't appreciate it. Two, bacteria and viruses are never planned, sir. Except for those guys with the smallpox laden blankets, maybe.

On a different subject entirely, here's a good piece of text with which to beat the hell out of hippies who argue the atomic bombings of Japan were Unbearable Things® (as opposed to simply the lesser of two evils), should any of you ever be required to do so. One particularly poignant fact he never mentions is that WWII was the last time the Purple Heart medal was ever produced--they still haven't run out the stockpiles produced for Operation Olympic in all the wars since. Even today there are still around 100,000 left.

Symphony D, would you know any reason I can't read your entire posts? I get about the first 6 lines, and then the rest is chopped off, unless I go to reply and quote your post. Anyone know why this is happening, it only happens with Symphony's posts.

 

[Ninja Dude]

Symphony D, would you know any reason I can't read your entire posts? I get about the first 6 lines, and then the rest is chopped off, unless I go to reply and quote your post. Anyone know why this is happening, it only happens with Symphony's posts.

I noticed that when you quoted Symphony that your qoute box was missing its right side. Weird.

I can read Symphony D.'s post fine.

 

[Symphony D.]

I'm so dangerous that the Internet autocensors me whenever possible.

Anyway, Mexico apparently enjoys violating American sovereignty. It's bad when it's not just immigrants, but the military. It's not the only time either. I'm not generally one to advocate gun ownership, but I'm moving up my time-table on learning to shoot. It increasingly seems to me that Mexico is anxious to reverse history.

 

[germanicus12]

A U.S. Border Patrol agent was held at gunpoint Sunday night by members of the Mexican military who had crossed the border into Arizona, but the soldiers returned to Mexico without incident when backup agents responded to assist.

"They are never held accountable, and the United States government will undoubtedly brush this off as another case of 'Oh well, they didn't know they were in the United States."

What is wrong with these sectences?

They crossed the border.... of course this alone is a good reason to shrug it aside, but they held a gun at a US Border Patrolman who was undoubtly wearing his uniform with an American flag on. You would think this is a good clue that you were in America.

We should increase our military presence on the border and threaten Mexico with invasion if they do not put a stop to this. But this is just my opinion.

 

[Supermath]

We should increase our military presence on the border and threaten Mexico with invasion if they do not put a stop to this. But this is just my opinion.

Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

 

[germanicus12]

Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

A wise idea I am sure.... all I can say is, thank god you are not our president. I do not like the idea of a nuke going off so close to US soil. Now if we were discussing England, that would be a different story.