While We Wait: Part 4

[kkmo]

Discrimination is discrimination, and discrimination is persecution. I'm not here to debate with you about what group has had it the worst. I don't care. Degree is irrelevant. You want to say that French citizens snubbing Americans simply because of who they are is less bad than the Holocaust or the Trail of Tears or whatever, fine, you're right.

Degree is not irrelevant. It's everything. You wondered why you were not offended by an epithet. I told you why. Your very question was the essence of ignorance.

All continue to suck however, and your claim that Americans are not discriminated against is flatly wrong. I don't care and made no claims about the relative scale of the wrongs inflicted on people, because I'm not running a documentary on humanity's greatest atrocities.

I never said that Americans are not discriminated against. I said that educated people in other countries, are just like educated people in America. They know that not all Americans are represented by their government, just like not all Chinese are, or not all Pakistanis are. Its a simple concept to understand. Then there are always uneducated people in countries that always discriminate others. It happens everywhere. I never denied this. I said that, typically, educated people do not discriminate because they are far more sensible.

I know you didn't make any claims about any of that. But you asked a question, or made a point, as to why you were not offended by "honky". I told you why. You got your answer.

Being treated like crap just because you agree with certain policy decisions is just as much discrimination as anything else is, and is really no excuse. "You're publicly supporting the Bush government in front of me, so I will be an ass to you" is every bit the dick move that "Oh, you're white, so I'm going to set your car on fire" is.

Like I said. Educated people tend to not associate individual human beings with their respective government. Degrees of persecution are everything to this discourse. Someone supporting the war in Iraq, for example, might get some trouble if they go to France. The likelihood of them going to France is very slim in the first place. Second of all, they return back to the states, unhindered. They have not had severed limbs, their brother hanged from a tree, or, as you said, their car set on fire. Neglecting degree in conversations of prejudice is downright ignorant. I don't really want to talk to you about this any more. You are obviously lacking in life experience on either side of the fence.

I repeat: I am not saying white people are not discriminated against. They are. Not only are Americans often discriminated by (often uneducated) people from other countries, but by fellow Americans of different races. It happens between races that are not white, and it happens to white people. It just happens. Its a fact of life. What I'm doing here is answering your question. You wondered why you are not offended by "honky". Well, its because there is little to no baggage associated with that word that could possibly make you offended.

People want to change other people's opinions or settle an issue, there's two ways of doing it: debate, or guns. Philosophy and violence. Everything else is just a waste of time. Philosophy's preferable.

Couldn't agree more.

EDIT: Seriously, how do I join this chat room. Its not necessarily that I want to chat right now, but more I just want to figure out how to work this Mac-based IRC program.

 

[Symphony D.]

Degree is not irrelevant. It's everything. You wondered why you were not offended by an epithet. I told you why. Your very question was the essence of ignorance.

More a rhetorical question. Degree just inspires greater emotional responses, and the human organism totally fails to be reasonable when those are invoked. The reason I call it into question is most of that emotional response is from past events that didn't happen to the current day proponents of those positions (admittedly, there are endless exceptions).

Unless it happened to you in your lifetime, you're basically holding on to the memory of what happened to your ancestors. And while that is extremely important (to ensure that such things, whatever they might be, don't happen again) it's also important to draw a distinction between the then and now.

A lot of censorship on speech boils down to what's said, not why. As an example, I don't think that Don Imus hates black people, I think he's just a country bumpkin who couldn't think of any better way to phrase what he wanted to say than "nappy-headed ho." Attacking words because they're words is always going to be stupid no matter how severe the incidence of their origin. The word's just a vessel. Within it is the symbology it represents. That's what has to be critically addressed, because that's the only way the word is going to cease to be an insult.

I'm not insulted by "honky" because I place no emotional value in it. Some people place that value in other words--the irony is, as long as they continue to do that, that word will continue to offend them. Admittedly, letting go of that can be an almost impossible thing to do, but realistically it's the only way to move beyond such things. Locking something up is not the same as destroying it.

 

[kkmo]

More a rhetorical question. Degree just inspires greater emotional responses, and the human organism totally fails to be reasonable when those are invoked. The reason I call it into question is most of that emotional response is from past events that didn't happen to the current day proponents of those positions (admittedly, there are endless exceptions).

Rhetorical questions are the ones begging most to be answered. I definitely agree with you here. Except, I do believe that many non-white Americans place more of an emphasis on their ancestors than white Americans do. Again, this is such a broad generalization, and I'm sure there are innumerable exceptions. In fact, most other cultures place more of an emphasis on their ancestors than Americans do. I think that is probably why both of us tend to feel it is not entirely relevant today. I'm sure a lot of people do have rightful reasons to be upset about some things.

Unless it happened to you in your lifetime, you're basically holding on to the memory of what happened to your ancestors. And while that is extremely important (to ensure that such things, whatever they might be, don't happen again) it's also important to draw a distinction between the then and now.

Yes and yes. Though, since I am not in those positions, I cannot speak for those people. Perhaps for some it is quite painful, even if only related to the old problem. And many many many people from the 50s are indeed still alive.

A lot of censorship on speech boils down to what's said, not why. As an example, I don't think that Don Imus hates black people, I think he's just a country bumpkin who couldn't think of anything better way to phrase what he wanted to say than "nappy-headed ho." Attacking words because they're words is always going to be stupid no matter how severe the incidence of their origin. The word's just a vessel. Within it is the symbology it represents. That's what has to be critically addressed, because that's the only way the word is going to cease to be an insult.

Yes. And "honky" represents absolutely zero painful "symbology" (nice word there, by the way ).

I'm not insulted by "honky" because I place no emotional value in it. Some people place that value in other words--the irony is, as long as they continue to do that, that word will continue to offend them. Admittedly, letting go of that can be an almost impossible thing to do, but realistically it's the only way to move beyond such things.

Exactly.

I need a beer.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Topic: Putting things into perspective for player-moderator relations.
Question: How much work in terms of resources spent is poured into an update?

I put about 24 hours of work into an update, spread over typically a week. I'm insane.

That's incorrect by a light year, sir. There is a reason for the past fifty years that it's been preferable to identify yourself as a Canadian when traveling overseas.

Getting upset over words is stupid and overrated anyway, and I personally hate the degree to which political correctness has been taken in America (and elsewhere). It's ludicrous. It's when those words become associated with physical discrimination and violence that they gain power--using them flippantly, just as with any word, decreases that power and meaning. Reserving them and making them taboo increases it, which is precisely why being PC is ********. If somebody calls you a name, laugh in their face and throw it back at them. It's when they start taking action that you beat the crap out of them for it.

Of course, new negative words will always rise if old words lose their sting, while politically correct words gradually become offensive. There's only two choices- stick with perjoratives, or constantly refresh the language, which leads to confusion and lots of unintentional 'insults' by people who use older words.

The only negative I find about Americans pretending to be Canadians (really, it's a bit of a dubious honour) is that many people outside of North America start to assume that 'Canadians' are actually Americans lying about their citizenship.

"You're publicly supporting the Bush government in front of me, so I will be an ass to you" is every bit the dick move that "Oh, you're white, so I'm going to set your car on fire" is.

I feel I should note that race is not a choice, but political affiliations are.

 

[kkmo]

I've never played the Canadian card. Its better to put on puppy eyes and have the attitude, "I didn't do it".

 

[jalapeno_dude]

Topic: Putting things into perspective for player-moderator relations.
Question: How much work in terms of resources spent is poured into an update?

I probably spent about 4-5 hours on my Update Zero. Probably 30% of that was spent staring at various Wikipedia pages for purposes of city placement, figuring out how I prevent Egypt from becoming unified at 2000 BC, etc. Another 30% was spent writing the update. Then probably 20% making stats (which is the most time I'll need to put in except when I decide to create lots of NPCs--creating stats is hard, updating them is easy) and 20% map, uploading things, etc.

I'm already at the length of my 4th update in JalNES I. Things will only get longer from here...

 

[Luckymoose]

Just means you got more of the "I'm sure if we just talk to'em..." tribe genes. Lot of good that did, eh?

It would explain my seemingly inability to win a war wouldn't it?

 

[Azale]

I probably spent about 4-5 hours on my Update Zero. Probably 30% of that was spent staring at various Wikipedia pages for purposes of city placement, figuring out how I prevent Egypt from becoming unified at 2000 BC, etc. Another 30% was spent writing the update. Then probably 20% making stats (which is the most time I'll need to put in except when I decide to create lots of NPCs--creating stats is hard, updating them is easy) and 20% map, uploading things, etc.

I'm already at the length of my 4th update in JalNES I. Things will only get longer from here...

Yea, your drained by the time you reach China Minor request: shuffle the order the cradles are mentioned in the update.

So for instance, in this update, it would be China-India-Mesopotamia.

 

[jalapeno_dude]

Yea, your drained by the time you reach China Minor request: shuffle the order the cradles are mentioned in the update.

So for instance, in this update, it would be China-India-Mesopotamia.

Generally I update the cradle that sends in orders first. Added incentive...

 

[Ninja Dude]

Generally I update the cradle that sends in orders first. Added incentive...

Is India first then? Becasue I sent orders pretty early.

 

[Terrance888]

100 to me is not a true BT because of my tempering...

SEIGE OF NAPATA/KUSH: 300 years Jason! 300!

Perhaps in orders we split it into 25 year goal orinated sections?

 

[Luckymoose]

Anyway Luckymoose, the Crimean War was still going when the American "civil war" ended.

I don't mind that being changed, but I am not going to pretend Luckymoose is right. The American Civil War was 1861-1865, while the Crimean War was 1854-1856.

Yes and you said the Crimean War was still going on when the American Civil War ended. You must be ******** or something.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

Oops- I got 1854 and 1864 mixed up. I think I got up too early this morning.

 

[Terrance888]

One thing: everyone is retared compared to who-ever rules up there. (vagely looks up.)

 

[Luckymoose]

Oops- I got 1854 and 1864 mixed up. I think I got up too early this morning.

Making yourself look like an ignorant prick. So before you argue something please check the facts.

 

[Dachs]

Is India first then? Becasue I sent orders pretty early.

I sent them sort of early too, but they're kinda long, which wasn't originally intended.

Actually, my orders end up getting as long as they are by accident. I seem to have an awfully verbose way of expressing myself. I also don't use maps because they hurt my soul.

 

[sp1023]

Hey guys, long time no see.

 

[Luckymoose]

Hey guys, long time no see.

Oh no, you're back. Quick move the island.

 

[sp1023]

I'm not back, just came back to say hi to my old time friends.

 

[Terrance888]

Just change your avatar please. I'm resisting the urge to spam when I look at It and I often find I fail miserably.