While We Wait: Part 5

[alex994]

I know, but I'm just so frustrated! What did I do wrong? I spent weeks on the NES, ruleset was improvised from Feuro, and the stats are detailed. The story isn't crap either. What went wrong?

People are probably just too busy

 

[Ekolite]

Hi again, I just thought I'd remind people anmd get some more opinions on the idea. AT some point during next year I will be running a sorta-NES based on the Forum Game ''Night of the Werewolves''.

''KoNES: Never Ending Night'' is the working title. The 'NES' would take place over a set period of time and involve a set number of players. My justification for running it in the NES forum is that it will have a detailed back story, and a mystery for the players to solve. I also hope to bring more players into NOTW.

The basic idea of a NOTW is ''us or them'', the innocent people must kill off the werewolves before the werewolves kill them. More information about general NOTW's can be found in the help; thread, although large parts of this will be redundant for this NES.

I know it doesn't really sound like a NES, and if it offends too much then I will take it back to the pit that is Forum Games. Still, I would prefer to do it here.

The game takes place in an old Bannor (all NOTW's are based on the mod Fall From Heaven, but it is not neccessary that you play FFH to understand NOTWs) Manor, that has been deserted for hundreds of years. A mysterious woman from the north buys the manor, and a few days later, throws a party, inviting guests from all across the Empire. Little did they know that many of them would never leave it grounds.

I will provide a more detailed opening story at some point in thew next few weeks, although it wont actually be run untill well after January.

Any thoughts?

 

[Abaddon]

I would welcome the move to this forum considerably.

Considering we run DipNES, RiskNES and a few other sillyNES.. I cannot see how that couldnt be justafiable as being run here

 

[Sheep]

That's nice. I understand that peace treaties actually happen in NESes; their terms are still usually ridiculous.

I agree but that could have something to do with the preponderance of teenagers here that see things in only black or white.

What, was it a non sequitur then? Because it wasn't amusing at all. Humor usually works better when it's, you know, funny.

Perhaps you missed the joke, ah well can't please everyone!

[I maintain that this is not the way wars are generally fought in NESes, and they are out of context for their time periods.

Yeah I dont disagree with you, but I dont agree with you. If I had the time to I would explain it, but yeah I dont think you fully understood what I meant.

Have some counterexamples. Here are some more. People who quote von Clausewitz ought to actually pay attention when they read his books. His contention was that the introduction of nationalism and republicanism and the democratization of warfare by the allowance of creations of formations like Landwehr troops allows total war...among other things, of course.

I understand the points and know Clausewitz well, although I dont completely agree with his thesis or his methods.... Furthemore I was referring more to the government's in question not the actual people that government represents... After all in a nes the player represents the government of a country more than the people itself, and its a very rare occasion where a mod is brave enough to interfere with rebellions and the like in an ongoing war in a nes....

In the end while nesing gives you a approximation of world politics and foreign relations, it only does that and to compare it to the real world is somewhat unfair to nesing, as you are trying to meassure it up to being something it was never meant to be in the first place.

 

[Sheep]

I would welcome the move to this forum considerably.

Considering we run DipNES, RiskNES and a few other sillyNES.. I cannot see how that couldnt be justafiable as being run here

I would be keen for a game of diplomacy if that is what you meant by DipNES.

 

[Sheep]

Yours is a noob NES. You are a noob, the people in your NES are noobs. Your have a very bad reputation as a noob and it will take some time to go away. You have improved somewhat, but there is still a long way to go.

Ah yes a problem that silver knows well, although we kinda had to put up with him after a while..... Silver imposed himself as the new resident genocidal maniac following in the footsteps of such people like AnarchyRulz, myself and Amon Savag.

Of course there would be few people left around here that would remember when Silver was a noob, but to not make you lose heart I do like to stress the fact that it does eventually pass, especially when the next influx of new nesers comes in, as it usually happens.

 

[das]

Yours is a noob NES. You are a noob, the people in your NES are noobs. Your have a very bad reputation as a noob and it will take some time to go away. You have improved somewhat, but there is still a long way to go.

Sad, but true - all of it.

That and you are basically competing with warman17 for the Medieval NES niche, and his is just better, not to mention that he also has a much better reputation.

although I dont completely agree with his thesis or his methods....

His "methods"? He didn't exactly have an opportunity to put his ideas into practice. As for his proposed military methods, it's been a while since I read it, but it was very much pragmatic if I recall correctly.

Ofcourse, Clausewitz and the rest of modern military science can be a bit difficult to apply effectively to pre-18th century warfare.

I would welcome the move to this forum considerably.

I don't see anything wrong with it either, actually, certainly not as such - we did have many unconventional NESes here in the past.

 

[North King]

I agree but that could have something to do with the preponderance of teenagers here that see things in only black or white.

Please don't pull the age card. You're very fond of total war yourself.

 

[Supermath]

Speaking of DipNES, I'll be willing to run a new one. I assume that the DPJudge MapIt feature allows one to plot actual moves and not just positions?

 

[Dachs]

I agree but that could have something to do with the preponderance of teenagers here that see things in only black or white.

Doesn't mean it's not a problem.

Yeah I dont disagree with you, but I dont agree with you. If I had the time to I would explain it, but yeah I dont think you fully understood what I meant.

Try me. Or is this something only for people with international relations Ph.D.s?

I understand the points and know Clausewitz well, although I dont completely agree with his thesis or his methods....

...like what, specifically?

Furthemore I was referring more to the government's in question not the actual people that government represents... After all in a nes the player represents the government of a country more than the people itself, and its a very rare occasion where a mod is brave enough to interfere with rebellions and the like in an ongoing war in a nes....

That's the funny thing, though; nobody's really bothered to say who the player in a NES actually is. Some people say it's just the ruler at the time, some say it's a shadowy, immortal mysterious person advising the ruler (like Iggy, IIRC), some say that the NESer embodies the ruling party in power or even the entire government, some blither about penguins and polar bears and stuff like that, and some don't even say who or what the NESer is, simply that said person 'plays as a [country/nonnational entity of sufficient import]' and leaves it at that.

And the 'lack of mod bravery' is another problem...mods need to slap down players when they're doing stupid crap. If a mod isn't imposing realistic barriers on what the player can and cannot do, and not punishing those who attempt dumb stuff with appropriate consequences, the NES is defunct.

In the end while nesing gives you a approximation of world politics and foreign relations, it only does that and to compare it to the real world is somewhat unfair to nesing, as you are trying to meassure it up to being something it was never meant to be in the first place.

You and I have vastly different opinions of what NESing is, then. I personally don't get my jollies from watching other players do utterly moronic things and get away with them, because it's arbitrary and unfair. A realistic simulation ought to be what we're aiming for.

His "methods"? He didn't exactly have an opportunity to put his ideas into practice. As for his proposed military methods, it's been a while since I read it, but it was very much pragmatic if I recall correctly.

Pragmatic is an understatement. He basically said what could and couldn't be done, what happens in war, and why, with loads of fun historical examples and technical German language that made the book a monthlong read when I tried to do it in the original. There's very little to disagree with in the book, because it's largely definition...

Ofcourse, Clausewitz and the rest of modern military science can be a bit difficult to apply effectively to pre-18th century warfare.

Somewhat. That's true so far as the millennium preceding goes, sort of (though most of the fundamentals are correct), but the classical age pretty well corresponds.

Speaking of DipNES, I'll be willing to run a new one. I assume that the DPJudge MapIt feature allows one to plot actual moves and not just positions?

As far as I know, but the actual code for using the DPJudge's MapIt is somewhat...inscrutable to say the least, and a bit confusing. You'll probably want to ask around their community to see if somebody can clear it up for you a bit.

 

[das]

Re: mod bravery. As far as the principles of althistorical realism are concerned, the main question a mod should ask when confronted with player plans that conflict with what happened in real history is, "why didn't it happen?" The purpose behind this is not to find an excuse to shoot something down, but to figure out the difficulties that the player will have to face. Ideally, the conflict between advanced player plans and such difficulties should be the main part of the NES; it's just that it is compounded, much like equivalent great plans in real history, by the presence of other players with their own plans and agendas. Problems with this idea arise when players all too often come up with a plan that didn't and pretty much couldn't have happened due to the human factor first and foremost (one solution that occurred to me was to pretend that players are time-travelers, but frankly that's just silly). The three main problems that arise from this are: 1) implausible technological progress, 2) implausible geographic exploration and 3) implausible amounts of continuity. I am going to give implausibly reasonable and far-sighted socio-economic policies a pass because a) such things happen and are to encouraged inasmuch as they should be the main focus and b) I'm sure I will be able to turn them against the players in one way or another, in fact I am working on a general list of things that could go wrong on the political arena. Still, the others are annoying, especially when combined with one another; it is relatively easy to ignore them or destroy them arbitrarily, preferably making it backfire variously on those trying to use it, but that is a lazy way out, though I suppose that it is preferable to letting it work.

Everything else is more or less accounted for, though.

 

[flyingchicken]

Doublethink in NESing is awesome. I employ it whenever something (be it realism, the rules, or whatever) in a game suits my wants or otherwise. /random

 

[das]

Fair enough, but note that a mod could simply start explicitly punishing such things in a mad frenzy.

 

[Dachs]

With regards to the 'mod bravery' bit, I basically agree with das on all points.

 

[Sheep]

Please don't pull the age card. You're very fond of total war yourself.

Oh no doubt, however I still do realise that majority of the time in RL thats not just going to happen, and I do not, not make peace if its in my advantage, just because I want to wipe someone out....

I do remember I used to be more gun ho about it when I was much younger.

 

[foolish icarus]

3) implausible amounts of continuity.

I think this one requires the most attention. The others just need a bit of restraint and thoughtfulness, but the 'continuity issue' is significant, at least as I see it. It can be a monumental task in any long-time-period game to rework a society and government and culture on a turn to turn basis to get any decent approximation of historical dynamism, and I'd be really surprised if someone could do a good job of that again and again without becoming exhausted.

Furthermore, it can be frustrating and unrewarding. You come up with some ideas, a moment of a civilization, and naturally you want the opportunity to explore it, really get past the basics and see what it is.

We all know the other side of that is seeing where it goes. Change is important, and things need to be shaken up or else it seems cheesy, because that's how things really are. Again, though, I'd be impressed with someone that can churn out a really good society 'snapshot' every turn without becoming discouraged at the continual obsolescence.

So we compromise to get by, but it'd be really cool if someone had a better idea about how to balance it.

 

[Sheep]

Doesn't mean it's not a problem.

Of course, and I havent denied that.

Try me. Or is this something only for people with international relations Ph.D.s?

Well I dont know the PhD thing mate, I am going for it, going back to do the Masters now....... But the main reason why I disagree with our friend Clausewitz is that he is a realist in his approach... I more support interdependence theory and the fact that given time I believe that a world government will form. It may be after a period of intense upheavel or not, that is up to us to decide, but eventually yes...

Finally clausewitz is best suited for the timeperiod that he wrote in, not applied verbatim to the study of today's geopolitical scene.

That's the funny thing, though; nobody's really bothered to say who the player in a NES actually is. Some people say it's just the ruler at the time, some say it's a shadowy, immortal mysterious person advising the ruler (like Iggy, IIRC), some say that the NESer embodies the ruling party in power or even the entire government, some blither about penguins and polar bears and stuff like that, and some don't even say who or what the NESer is, simply that said person 'plays as a [country/nonnational entity of sufficient import]' and leaves it at that.

Not though that in this you never once mentioned the neser being the people of the nation.... The Mod controls public opinion of your policies and reforms, after all don't they? Thus no matter what the neser actually represents, whether its just the leader, a faction of govermment or the entire government the point I made before still remains valid.

And the 'lack of mod bravery' is another problem...mods need to slap down players when they're doing stupid crap. If a mod isn't imposing realistic barriers on what the player can and cannot do, and not punishing those who attempt dumb stuff with appropriate consequences, the NES is defunct.

Of course, I do seem to remember fudging Iran (Nuclear Kid) over somewhat in SheepNES: Modern Battlefields, just before I left last time due to intesely stupid and un-realisitc orders. However I do think that some mods do this better than others.

You and I have vastly different opinions of what NESing is, then. I personally don't get my jollies from watching other players do utterly moronic things and get away with them, because it's arbitrary and unfair. A realistic simulation ought to be what we're aiming for.

No I like the whole idea of a simulation too.... which is perhaps why I have released some very complex neses myself in the past... The main problems of having this is the intense time that it takes for the mod to run. While we should strive for realism, and by no means do I get my jollies (nor do I appreciate the insinuation that I do either) I have realised that to expect complete realism is in itself unrealistic given the format of the game....

If you want that level of realism however I can suggest some really great games, although I am sure you would of heard of some of them and have some more to share with me.

Pragmatic is an understatement. He basically said what could and couldn't be done, what happens in war, and why, with loads of fun historical examples and technical German language that made the book a monthlong read when I tried to do it in the original. There's very little to disagree with in the book, because it's largely definition...

The definitions can at times be outdated, however forgiveable that might be and the parts where he is not talking about definitions but his own thoughts is slightly skewed by wrongly-held assumptions. All in all though I feel that we are just going around in circles here so, meh whatever, you like Clausewitz, I get it!

 

[Dachs]

But the main reason why I disagree with our friend Clausewitz is that he is a realist in his approach... I more support interdependence theory and the fact that given time I believe that a world government will form. It may be after a period of intense upheavel or not, that is up to us to decide, but eventually yes...

I don't see how that at all contradicts what's in On War.

Finally clausewitz is best suited for the timeperiod that he wrote in, not applied verbatim to the study of today's geopolitical scene.

The segments he devotes to some elements of tactics are, indeed, less applicable, but the basic principles remain the same. Our good buddy Carl didn't commit the same mistake Jomini did in making his book highly tactically sensitive...

Not though that in this you never once mentioned the neser being the people of the nation....

and some don't even say who or what the NESer is, simply that said person 'plays as a [country/nonnational entity of sufficient import]' and leaves it at that.

Sin of omission; if the above is in fact the case, then the NESer could reasonably regard him/herself as being the people as well as the ruler. And they have done so at many times in the past, disregarding or pretending to shape public opinion through such things as stories or simply assumed that the People will go along with their little Götterdämmerung. And in many cases the mods let 'em do it, ceding control over the entire country to the players and making the mod little more than a treasurer like in Monopoly. This type of game is supported by some, but not myself.

The Mod controls public opinion of your policies and reforms, after all don't they? Thus no matter what the neser actually represents, whether its just the leader, a faction of govermment or the entire government the point I made before still remains valid.

Nowhere did I say that that part of your position was invalid. I basically, as can be understood if you read the rest of what I have to say, agree with it; the mod's job is to represent public opinion among many, many other things, and the vast majority of them are delinquent in the maintenance of same.

No I like the whole idea of a simulation too.... which is perhaps why I have released some very complex neses myself in the past...

While this isn't really facebook, here...links or it didn't happen.

The main problems of having this is the intense time that it takes for the mod to run. While we should strive for realism, and by no means do I get my jollies (nor do I appreciate the insinuation that I do either) I have realised that to expect complete realism is in itself unrealistic given the format of the game....

Well, duh, time factors are the most important problem with running a NES, even if you don't want a reasonably realistic one. (Obviously, since a NES is in many ways a model, making a completely realistic NES is pie in the sky; however, striving for something that is as close as can be reasonably gotten is so basic as to only be expected.) This is another problem with a lot of NESes...they are taken too lightly. People are starting up games with no bloody idea of the time and effort that goes into making a halfway decent NES. Starting up something, going for a few updates, then abandoning the project and slinking back into the blackness are not good things. (This part not really being directed at any one person in particular; most if not all NESers, including myself, have done that in the past.)

The definitions can at times be outdated, however forgiveable that might be and the parts where he is not talking about definitions but his own thoughts is slightly skewed by wrongly-held assumptions.

I'd really like you to point out specific examples so that I can agree or disagree with you.

All in all though I feel that we are just going around in circles here so, meh whatever, you like Clausewitz, I get it!

Eh. Book's kinda dry. There are better out there, he just wrote so much about so much that he hit basically all of the key points and critical concepts.

 

[das]

Re: Clausewitz. I think that you are talking about international relations whereas Dachspmg is talking about military strategy. Also, arguing about a book using only general terms and avoiding anything like specific examples is fun, but potentially misleading.

However I do think that some mods do this better than others.

Some mods certainly do it more often, but it all too often takes the shape of simply shooting ideas down without putting them into practice with the disastrous results that would follow. That is not necessarily a bad thing, since even when it is done arbitrarily it puts nice, sound limits on what happens, without inflicting much damage on those not aware of those limits until then. Such limitations make things more fun inasmuch as they force people to think about what they do and try and work around the limitations.

 

[Symphony D.]

Well I dont know the PhD thing mate, I am going for it, going back to do the Masters now.......

Oh, what? Woah, woah, woah, hold the bloody phone here.

[04:18:31] Alec Walton: "I'm just doing what you'd do in my shoes" isn't a valid argument in international politics.
[04:19:08] Sheepmaddrell: who has the doctorate in international politics?
[04:19:13] Sheepmaddrell: me thats right
[04:19:26] Alec Walton: Sitting on a pile of your millions too?
[04:19:28] Sheepmaddrell: so dont go telling me what the . .. .. .. . is valid in international politics
[04:19:31] Sheepmaddrell: yeah
[04:20:09] Alec Walton: Right, well, that's great. But it doesn't change the situation.
[04:25:36] *** "Sheepmaddrell" signed off at Mon Dec 18 04:25:36 2006.

So you're going back to get the precursor to something you had two years ago, am I right? The same one you had four months earlier, right? Right?

Oh and I dont deny being taken for an idiot has helped me from time to time, buts its more annoying than usual. I probably have one of the highest IQs here (I am classified as a genius and hold a PhD in International Relations which I earnt by the time I was 20 but thats another story altogether)

@Swissempire: If thats true, the congratulations, when I was 14 I was too busy chasing girls. But I would definelty recomment an International Relations doctorate, it is absolutley fascinating. However what IQ scale are you using as even the smartest people on Earth on the IQ scales that I am familiar arent that high. Then again I may not of heard of diffrent scale that it out there, its not like I go looking for them.....
[...]
@North King: I am sure I know what you mean, but when I am in the top 0.0001% of the population in terms of genuis, Normal genuis doesnt mean squat to me

@Insane Panda: I have never once claimed to be modest about my looks, money, smarts of any other success I have. If you have it flaunt it!

So were you so smart that you invented a time machine, went back, and kept yourself from getting that Ph.D? Or is this one of those things like when you posted somebody else's timeline, and said you were "[...] quiet proud of these so far" only to suddenly remember it was somebody else's after this fact was brought up?

I know you're a super-genius and all but Jesus Christ, how stupid and forgetful do you think we "ordinary people" are?