While We Wait: Writer's Block & Other Lame Excuses

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It took the American democracy something like 100 years to abolish slavery, whereas it took Russia something like 800 years to abolish serfdom. So I'm not really so sure we desperately needed a monarch since for most of monarchies' histories they've been quite content to abide by unjust status quos.

It should also be mentioned that Russian serfdom was abolished on mostly political grounds (to forestall further uprisings). Not exactly the makings of moral supremacy.
 
It took the American democracy something like 100 years to abolish slavery, whereas it took Russia something like 800 years to abolish serfdom. So I'm not really so sure we desperately needed a monarch since for most of monarchies' histories they've been quite content to abide by unjust status quos.

It should also be mentioned that Russian serfdom was abolished on mostly political grounds (to forestall further uprisings). Not exactly the makings of moral supremacy.

Though there was somewhat less tradition in the American case and both ended in part or nearly completely through wars.
 
That's debatable - by all accounts it was very personal for the Tsar and for the proponents of the reform, who went for it despite their fears of resistance. But it is also irrelevant - what concerns me is the results rather than motivations. As for the other point, I admit that I am regretting my choice of analogies. :p Obviously any comparisons between the two situations are going to be strained (a lot had happened over 800 years, for one thing), and we could spend a long time bending them in one direction or another.

Still, my main contention is that the reason both the Russian monarchy and the Southern states had, by and by, supported an inequitable status quo is that in both cases the state had to rely on the support of the landowning aristocrats that made up the political elite. But the Russian monarchy was at least able to take the risk of going against its aristocratic establishment eventually, upon acquiring a sufficiently powerful bureaucracy outside of it (a product of Nicholas I, who I might add was also opposed to serfdom but did not dare to abolish out for fear of the aristocrats, whether reasonable or not - he still did do a lot to prepare the groundwork for it, though, both by strengthening the imperial bureaucracy, allowing serfs to be freed in principle and developing the projects along which the emancipation eventually took place). The Southern democracy could not do so, and did not; and a broader American democracy could not enforce its moral decision except through a great deal of bloodshed.

EDIT:

Though there was somewhat less tradition in the American case and both ended in part or nearly completely through wars.

Ah yes, the noble rebellion against Alexander II in support of serfdom. We've dismissed that claim. :p Even though he did apparently expect a coup attempt, at least.
 
That's debatable - by all accounts it was very personal for the Tsar and for the proponents of the reform, who went for it despite their fears of resistance. But it is also irrelevant - what concerns me is the results rather than motivations. As for the other point, I admit that I am regretting my choice of analogies. :p Obviously any comparisons between the two situations are going to be strained (a lot had happened over 800 years, for one thing), and we could spend a long time bending them in one direction or another.

Still, my main contention is that the reason both the Russian monarchy and the Southern states had, by and by, supported an inequitable status quo is that in both cases the state had to rely on the support of the landowning aristocrats that made up the political elite. But the Russian monarchy was at least able to take the risk of going against its aristocratic establishment eventually, upon acquiring a sufficiently powerful bureaucracy outside of it (a product of Nicholas I, who I might add was also opposed to serfdom but did not dare to abolish out for fear of the aristocrats, whether reasonable or not - he still did do a lot to prepare the groundwork for it, though, both by strengthening the imperial bureaucracy, allowing serfs to be freed in principle and developing the projects along which the emancipation eventually took place). The Southern democracy could not do so, and did not; and a broader American democracy could not enforce its moral decision except through a great deal of bloodshed.

This is completely disingenuous because a great deal of bloodshed did happen in Russia, at least partially because the serf reforms were so ineffective.

The argument seems to me that democracies cannot enforce their edicts except with killing, as opposed to monarchies which do not have this evident failure? You said so yourself that it's a bad analogy, partially due to the very different histories at play. I think we'd both regret it if we suggested that any of the European monarchies had got to a start and a running without an iota of war or bloodshed. The United States, by all accounts a young nation with an undeveloped set of legal principles vis a vis secession, was simply breaking in its new shoes, if you will. At any rate, the proposition that monarchies are better equipped to handle questions of social change seems very spuriously established to me. Monarchies are historically resistant to social change to the point of bloody annihilation.
 
I would be careful in referring to the antebellum south as a democratic society; the south prior to the abolition of slavery, and as a result the large landholding and politically-important estates of southern families, was some kind of pseudo-feudal realm existing within 19th-century America. It is hard to understate the political power, clout and influence that landholding, slave-owning families in the south held as families prior to the war and indeed afterwards. If you look at any southern state, though particularly Virginia, prior to the Civil War and a given few years after the curtailing of Reconstruction, the same names will crop up again and again as congressmen, senators and governors.

Familial influence and tradition was and arguably still is an important part of the ethos of southern regional politics and cultural identity. I would go so far to say that the antebellum south was probably, at best, a very permissive, but nonetheless oligarchic, political microcosm.
 
This is completely disingenuous because a great deal of bloodshed did happen in Russia, at least partially because the serf reforms were so ineffective.

The argument seems to me that democracies cannot enforce their edicts except with killing, as opposed to monarchies which do not have this evident failure? You said so yourself that it's a bad analogy, partially due to the very different histories at play. I think we'd both regret it if we suggested that any of the European monarchies had got to a start and a running without an iota of war or bloodshed. The United States, by all accounts a young nation with an undeveloped set of legal principles vis a vis secession, was simply breaking in its new shoes, if you will. At any rate, the proposition that monarchies are better equipped to handle questions of social change seems very spuriously established to me. Monarchies are historically resistant to social change to the point of bloody annihilation.

My focus was on the specific comparison that seemed appropriate because the reforms in question happened within the same decade. My argument was simply that in those specific examples we see: how enlightened despotism, or else, a bureaucratic monarchy that has embraced Enlightenment values, has been able to carry through reforms with more ease, to a greater effect and with less immediate bloodshed than a federal, representative democracy. Are you going to deny that?

The bloodshed that did happen in Russia - do you mean the Civil War or something else? Because if you mean the Civil War, it happened five decades later, under circumstances that cannot be compared with those that started the American Civil War. I am not sure what point you are trying to make there - that bloodshed occurs in monarchies too?

Did the United States have special historical circumstances that explain why things went the way they did? Of course. So did every country in history - Russia, Austria, France, the lot of them. You could not find some sort of ideal monarchy or ideal democracy in a vacuum where it would have no excuses and no extenuating circumstances. Is being young and inexperienced an excuse? Maybe. On the other hand one could also say that they could have done better when they did not have the deadweight of hundreds of years of far more entrenched societal traditions, or that they could have learned from the mistakes of others.

Are monarchies historically resistant to social change to the point of annihilation? I'd argue that this is dubiously supported by the evidence, if we don't just focus on the ones that resisted it and were annihilated for that reason, and pay attention to all the ones that did carry out successful reforms. Sometimes monarchies are resistant, sometimes they encourage it, sometimes they ram it down their subjects' throats. A lot depends on the personality of the ruler and his ministers, but a lot depends on the social base of the monarchy as well. One of my main contentions was that a bureaucratic monarchy was in many ways a whole different beast from a purely aristocratic one, and that enlightened despotism had very different policies from 17th century absolutism, ones that probably have the best track record in terms of successful social reforms as compared to aristocratic absolute monarchies, noble republics such as Poland or representative democracies. And are democracies historically supportive of social change? Sometimes - sometimes very much not.

To conclude, I think that, inasmuch as any generalisations could be said, they are that democracies are more moderate. More inclined to support either the status quo or a steady degradation or a steady improvement. Monarchies are, at least in theory, more versatile and volatile (in practice, though, they are generally held back by any number of considerations, for better and for worse). They are more free to change things for the better or the worse, though they seldom actually do so. However, without autocratic power it can be much harder to carry out social change, even when it is desperately needed. If Joseph II or Alexander II was constrained by a parliament, it would have been much harder to force through their respective reforms. Would you deny this?
 
Your argument fundamentally relies on two things: that autocratic governments can effect change with less political capital (at least essentially true) and that enlightened despots can, therefore, enact much-needed changes with much less distress. I do not need to tell you how situational the latter case is. With every monarch you are rolling a die: whether you get an enlightened chap who is trained by Tudors and instructed in the ways of enlightenment philosophy or a lout who says "there is nothing more fun than riding horses and whipping peasants" is up to no one. For most of history it is the latter and Europe's many tragic stories are testament to this. Whether its another king being be headed by his angry and disaffected populace, or a petty German prince locking up his wife, or any number of kings who behold the suffering of the people with complete impassiveness, it is pretty damn misleading to suggest that monarchies are tapping into a serenity that democracies, with all their inefficiencies, cannot hope to acquire. Although Russian monarchs freed the serfs, they also kept them imprisoned all that time, and finally they fostered a regime-destroying civil war.

Great change comes at a cost, it must be said. But the cost is better paid by the people of their own free will than by the people because a single man is forcing them to at gunpoint.
 
Your argument fundamentally relies on two things: that autocratic governments can effect change with less political capital (at least essentially true) and that enlightened despots can, therefore, enact much-needed changes with much less distress. I do not need to tell you how situational the latter case is. With every monarch you are rolling a die: whether you get an enlightened chap who is trained by Tudors and instructed in the ways of enlightenment philosophy or a lout who says "there is nothing more fun than riding horses and whipping peasants" is up to no one. For most of history it is the latter and Europe's many tragic stories are testament to this. Whether its another king being be headed by his angry and disaffected populace, or a petty German prince locking up his wife, or any number of kings who behold the suffering of the people with complete impassiveness, it is pretty damn misleading to suggest that monarchies are tapping into a serenity that democracies, with all their inefficiencies, cannot hope to acquire. Although Russian monarchs freed the serfs, they also kept them imprisoned all that time, and finally they fostered a regime-destroying civil war.

Great change comes at a cost, it must be said. But the cost is better paid by the people of their own free will than by the people because a single man is forcing them to at gunpoint.

Isn't the American Civil War an example of people being forced to accept change at gunpoint, though? :lol: Whereas the abolition of serfdom, while done against the aristocracy's will, was still handled more liberally - they were generally compensated. If anything, it should have been less lenient, even if that meant actually forcing them at gunpoint - as opposed to in accordance with the laws of the land and the government's normal procedure; certainly a more complete land reform back then, if it could have been carried out, would have both outraged liberal opinion (never particularly in favour of land reform as opposed to emancipation) and headed off much of the socio-economic tensions that undermined the Russian Empire in its last years.

That aside though, I'm pretty satisfied with this argument. I think we have come as close to an agreement as we are going to, and I do not wish to extend it artificially. I'd like to call it a night unless you have more to say.
 
THE BLOOD OF LIBERTY MUST BE REFRESHED WITH THE BLOOD OF TYRANTS!
emot-argh.gif


Eh, alright. Fair play. American signing out.
 
Isn't the American Civil War an example of people being forced to accept change at gunpoint, though? :lol: Whereas the abolition of serfdom, while done against the aristocracy's will, was still handled more liberally - they were generally compensated.
It's not very difficult to imagine the government compensating slaveowners for emancipation if not for the whole "they started a massive civil war" thing. Some such plans were mooted during the war as part of compromise peace plans, but the Confederate government, such as it was, refused to negotiate on any basis other than total independence and the retention of slaveholding institutions until its total demise in April 1865.

So it's a teensy bit unfair to criticize the US government on those grounds.
 
I was not criticising it at all. I was simply pointing out that "but the cost is better paid by the people of their own free will than by the people because a single man is forcing them to at gunpoint" seems like a rather incongruous statement in this context (in the specific examples we were discussing, a democracy ended up having to enforce its will at gunpoint and a monarchy stuck to legal means). Of course both would prefer to avoid violence when possible. But that just means that statement was meaningless.

A whole different question is whether it was possible in the specific political atmosphere of the time. Somehow I don't see the South accepting such a compromise except when it was already on the ropes - and even then they did not seem very eager until they actually lost.
 
Well, famously, in January 1865, Alexander Stephens, the Confederate VP, met with Lincoln for peace talks. This was after the falls of Atlanta and Savannah; after John Bell Hood destroyed his own army at Franklin and Nashville; after Grant had bottled up Lee's troops in Petersburg and Richmond; and after Sheridan's destruction of the Shenandoah Valley. To all intents and purposes, the Confederacy had ceased to exist. Yet Stephens refused to negotiate on any basis other than full independence.
 
ChiefDesigner said:
The PAP and CCP are hopelessly corrupt; their economic success comes in spite of their governance model.
Neither assertion is true of the PAP. Also, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
 
Well, famously, in January 1865, Alexander Stephens, the Confederate VP, met with Lincoln for peace talks. This was after the falls of Atlanta and Savannah; after John Bell Hood destroyed his own army at Franklin and Nashville; after Grant had bottled up Lee's troops in Petersburg and Richmond; and after Sheridan's destruction of the Shenandoah Valley. To all intents and purposes, the Confederacy had ceased to exist. Yet Stephens refused to negotiate on any basis other than full independence.

What's striking to me is that modern governments, whether autocratic or democratic, seem to have a lot less political flexibility when it comes to war as compared to the various pre-modern conflicts. A negotiated compromise peace just doesn't seem to happen as much now, even when it would probably favour the interests of the society that those rulers supposedly serve; there is a strong preference for war to the finish and unconditional surrender or political annihilation of one of the sides, or barring that, a drawn-out stalemate with neither side admitting defeat or making peace. Must be something in the water ideological climate.

Of course, the American Total War may well be one of the first examples of such a victory-or-death conflict, since it was one of the first modern total wars or near there in other regards as well.
 
Masada, you should just have a paper or two to point to to be all like CORRUPTION IS USUALLY NOT AN ECONOMICALLY MEANINGFUL STATISTIC

get it down to a copypasta mang
 
I was not criticising it at all. I was simply pointing out that "but the cost is better paid by the people of their own free will than by the people because a single man is forcing them to at gunpoint" seems like a rather incongruous statement in this context (in the specific examples we were discussing, a democracy ended up having to enforce its will at gunpoint and a monarchy stuck to legal means). Of course both would prefer to avoid violence when possible. But that just means that statement was meaningless.

Yes, but in a monarchy, "legality" is all about what kinds of tyrannies the monarch is considered to legitimately exercise over the people. At least in a democracy, the tyrants are accountable to and revocable at the people's pleasure. This is essentially what I was getting at.

The assertion that monarchical societies would not suffer from civil conflict in lieu of a peaceable resolution when the landed gentry would come out to oppose any kind of useful social reform is amusing. Relying on enlightened monarchs is not an excellent proposal when unenlightened monarchs are just as common.

One wonders, if monarchies were such wonderful things, why so many people went to all the trouble of trying to topple them.
 
One wonders, if monarchies were such awful things, why they have managed to survive for so long and why so many people have went to all that trouble to defend or reinstate them.

As for the other point, that is one of the obstacles that we are not going to be able to overcome here, hence my termination of the argument yesterday. If you really cannot see the difference between a king and a tyrant or the difference between law and tyranny, or how a law does not need to be devised or acknowledged by democratic means to be a law, then there is no point to discussing this further.
 
You seem to acknowledge that there is a difference between a king and a tyrant, but appear unwilling to accept that both can happen in a monarchy.
 
You seem to acknowledge that there is a difference between a king and a tyrant, but appear unwilling to accept that both can happen in a monarchy.

What exactly makes you think that?

In case I somehow did make this unclear, yes, obviously a monarch can be a tyrant if he breaks the written and unwritten laws of his country, does not fulfill his responsibilities and violates the rights of his subjects without need. My point was rather that this does not invalidate the concept of laws still existing under monarchy, and does not make it impossible for us to distinguish between a monarch acting according to the law and a monarch being a tyrant with no care for the law.

It seems to me that anyone condemning monarchies, or empires, or governments as a blanket statement makes a mistake in failing to discern the difference between the good and the bad in their workings, focusing on an offensive form rather than the substance. This seems to me to be a potentially critical flaw when examining historical situations in non-democratic countries - which indeed is why I have bothered to argue against it here.
 
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