Who is the best Charismatic Leader?

[Izuul]

Cyrus definitely is the best of all of them. No idea how Hannibal could make it to #1 in that post

Pretty much any leader with FIN seems to win these.

 

[elmurcis]

oh, good old memories... Cyrus on Great Plains map.. that was my 1st BtS Emperor level victory some long time ago...

 

[MegaLurker]

You need BFC Horses, nothing more.

Numidians are not that much stronger against metal units than HAs because of their lower base-STR. Against Archers, Numidians are weaker than normal HAs.

Numidians get significantly better odds against all metal units, that's why they're better on Deity. They get better odds to withdraw, and you can give one or two of them Sentry with their very first promotion to give you a huge strategic advantage. They synergize particularly well with the Charismatic trait.

They make the HA rush a viable option on Deity in 100% of games that give you access to horses. I've demonstrated this to myself a number of times, AbsoluteZero also made a video specifically about this. Presumably because this argument has come up many times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q1zWyeBFvM

 

[Seraiel]

Numidians get significantly better odds against all metal units, that's why they're better on Deity. They get better odds to withdraw, and you can give one or two of them Sentry with their very first promotion to give you a huge strategic advantage. They synergize particularly well with the Charismatic trait.

They make the HA rush a viable option on Deity in 100% of games that give you access to horses. I've demonstrated this to myself a number of times, AbsoluteZero also made a video specifically about this. Presumably because this argument has come up many times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q1zWyeBFvM

I'm not interested in watching AZ's videos. I appreciate that he made so many of them, so that he invested so much time, but his gameplay is horrible, he makes more errors in 1T than I in a whole game. I play more than 10 times more slowly though, our styles are just not compatible.

What I wrote was true, against an Archer, the HA is stronger than the Numidian and Horse-Archers do well enough against all units except Spears, there the Numidian has a slight advantage. It's not like you state though that Numidians would make a HA-rush viable on Deity, remember that I'm the one with more Deity-experience here. HA-rushes on Deity can succeed, just as Numidian-rushes can, but there's not much difference between them. 1 more base-STR is massive, take the War Chariot as an example. Horse Archers are significantly stronger against Archers than Numidians, so in case that one can choke the target (which is the most common approach in a Horse Archer war anyhow) , then the normal HAs are even better. The only advantage of the Numidians is, that choking is not necessary, so maybe one can better plan when to attack and the AI doesn't build so many units because it's in war mode, but that's a minor difference. Generally all Horse-Archer-rushes are very much luck-dependant because Horse Archers just suck as units, the same is true for Axes, Swords and the Chariot aswell, they all suck.

The Immortals have a massive advantage over the Numidians, and that is that they're available with only AH, one can instantly choke one or two empires, lure out their Archers when one is still in the build-up phase, and then kill them when one has built enough troops, if they stay at only Archers that is possible. That advantage the HAs don't have, and that's why War Chariots and Immortals are just so much better than them.

And when I said that players conquered whole maps with them, then that was no lie. If you want I'll post you a screenshot where I conquered 3 or maybe even 4 empires completely with Immortals only, Deity ofc. .

 

[MegaLurker]

I'm not interested in watching AZ's videos. I appreciate that he made so many of them, so that he invested so much time, but his gameplay is horrible, he makes more errors in 1T than I in a whole game. I play more than 10 times more slowly though, our styles are just not compatible.

What I wrote was true, against an Archer, the HA is stronger than the Numidian and Horse-Archers do well enough against all units except Spears, there the Numidian has a slight advantage. It's not like you state though that Numidians would make a HA-rush viable on Deity, remember that I'm the one with more Deity-experience here. HA-rushes on Deity can succeed, just as Numidian-rushes can, but there's not much difference between them. 1 more base-STR is massive, take the War Chariot as an example. Horse Archers are significantly stronger against Archers than Numidians, so in case that one can choke the target (which is the most common approach in a Horse Archer war anyhow) , then the normal HAs are even better. The only advantage of the Numidians is, that choking is not necessary, so maybe one can better plan when to attack and the AI doesn't build so many units because it's in war mode, but that's a minor difference. Generally all Horse-Archer-rushes are very much luck-dependant because Horse Archers just suck as units, the same is true for Axes, Swords and the Chariot aswell, they all suck.

The Immortals have a massive advantage over the Numidians, and that is that they're available with only AH, one can instantly choke one or two empires, lure out their Archers when one is still in the build-up phase, and then kill them when one has built enough troops, if they stay at only Archers that is possible. That advantage the HAs don't have, and that's why War Chariots and Immortals are just so much better than them.

And when I said that players conquered whole maps with them, then that was no lie. If you want I'll post you a screenshot where I conquered 3 or maybe even 4 empires completely with Immortals only, Deity ofc. .

I'm not really interested in your experience with HoF starts, nor with marathon speed. I've compared for myself on Deity enough times to see the advantage against melee pay off bigtime.

Not sure how you can say a unit like HAs "just suck." HA rushes aren't really luck dependent, they'll work as long as the map is appropriate.

Numidians make a much higher % of Deity starts appropriate, because you can get winning odds against spearmen in 20% culture cities. If your target can whip a handful of spearmen then your non-numidian HA rush gets stuffed immediately. It makes a big difference. Numidians doing better than base HAs on Deity isn't much of a debate.

I'm not saying Hannibal is a stronger leader than Cyrus. Immortals are almost as bad as war chariots for throwing off the game balance. Better than Quechuas IMO because of the extra movement.

 

[Seraiel]

You havn't even understood what I was writing try to foist things on me that I didn't even write.

 

[Pangaea]

Interesting to see who people voted for 6 or so years ago, but this one wasn't too "bad". Voted for Cyrus myself just now, as he's the best in my opinion. Depends a bit on getting horses of course, but he's not bad without them either, although of course the Immortal is excellent until you face spears and swords.

Traits like FIN and CRE are easier for beginners, though, as they are sort of passive traits, so require less skill or knowledge to take advantage of them. Maybe that is why many vote for these kind of leaders. The poll is also many years old, and I'm sure playstyles have developed a lot over the last 5-6 years.

 

[Lexicus]

Traits like FIN and CRE are easier for beginners,

Also incredibly lazy people like me who just can't be bothered to switch civics all the time for Spiritual

 

[Izuul]

Interesting to see who people voted for 6 or so years ago, but this one wasn't too "bad". Voted for Cyrus myself just now, as he's the best in my opinion. Depends a bit on getting horses of course, but he's not bad without them either, although of course the Immortal is excellent until you face spears and swords.

Traits like FIN and CRE are easier for beginners, though, as they are sort of passive traits, so require less skill or knowledge to take advantage of them. Maybe that is why many vote for these kind of leaders. The poll is also many years old, and I'm sure playstyles have developed a lot over the last 5-6 years.

There was also a notion back then that FIN was just far and away the best trait. I think most now would agree that is not the case.

 

[Seraiel]

There was also a notion back then that FIN was just far and away the best trait. I think most now would agree that is not the case.

Completely understandeable, because FIN is the best trait (for n00bs ^^ ) . 3-4y ago, all players were n00bs compared towards the knowledge that exists nowadays about CIV. I still remember people called SPI a 2nd or 3rd grad trait and many players have still not understood that it is on par with IND and PHI if played well and in Dom- or Conquest games it's actually the strongest trait of all. Maybe not always, but people completely forget how tech-trades are the greatest source of and how changing the civics + religion make an empire so great and which amazing advantage versatility on those two gives. Just imagine how easy it is to generate a few Great Merchants for mass-upgrading units when the switch to Caste + Pacifism is free and how great it i. e. is when one can run OR, then whip buildings, then pre-built 4-5 units, switch to Theo and produce them in 4-5T and then switch to Caste + Pacifism afterwards to generate GPs, take the religion of civ x to get tech a and then switch to y to get tech b afterwards and so on and so on.

 

[plasmacannon]

Wow! I started this thread 5 1/2 years ago. Has it really been that long? My how time flies.
I remember posting this question for each of the traits.
I've been playing mods for so long.
Hannibal is still my all time favorite BTS leader.
Fast promoting units and an economy to keep conquering was a good blend.
Glad to see the Civ4 forum alive and well.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Financial is still a top trait to have. I'm just amazed at the speed of Hannibal's teaching as an opponent in a game I'm currently playing. I captured one of his four cities and he still was able to get monopoly Construction and Metal Casting technologies.

I agree with Seraiel on SPI trait.