Who is the most nationalistic group on the Forums?

[m4gill4]

Poland was "utterly destroyed". The Germans had no desire to "assimilate" the Poles, as they regarded poles to be a lesser race, unfit to be German citizens, and indeed useful only as quasi slave labor. Polands major schools, libraries, Palaces, their government buildings, were all ransacked, and then destroyed for no reason than to deprive the Poles of these buildings. Polands leaders and intellectuals were murdered so that the poles would have no ability to unite against their enemies. So I would argue that Poland was indeed "utterly destroyed" in a way no other country has been, ever.

Here is an excellent article detailing the all horrors which Poland suffered from 1939 until the fall of communism in the 1990's under Germany and Russia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Poland_(1939-1945)

"Over 6 million Polish citizens - nearly 21.4% of Poland's population - died between 1939 and 1945.[3] Over 90% of the death toll came through non-military losses, as most of the civilians were targeted by various deliberate actions by Germans and Soviets.[3] There is some controversy as to whether Soviet policies were harsher than those of the Nazis.[4][5]"

"The Nazis held that the Slavs, like the Jews, were subhuman. "All Poles," Hitler swore, "will disappear from the world." On August 22, 1939, one week before the Nazi invasion of Poland, Hitler gave the Wehrmacht their instructions: "Kill without pity or mercy all men, women and children of Polish descent or language.... Be merciless. Be brutal. It is necessary to proceed with maximum severity. The war is to be a war of annihilation."

 

[cybrxkhan]

^oh... i forgot about that. i did know about that, don't get me wrong.

i don't think that compares to Vietnam, but I know having to war with your own people and millions dying by their own people is pretty rough too.


anyhow...

So I would argue that Poland was indeed "utterly destroyed" in a way no other country has been, ever.

i don't want to sound cruel, but a lot of other cultures have experienced similar or equally attempted destructions - native americans, jews, the victims of the mongol invasions, victims of Stalin, chinese and other minorities under Mao, the Japanese on their victims...

but before we turn this thing too political or insensitive, i will say that such evils do and can inspire nationalism. actually, i think "bad" things is the #1 cause of nationalism.

Vietnamese nationalism, for example, the communist kind, was caused by France's stubborness and arrogance when they colonized Vietnam. the traditional and the one embedded in Vietnam's "soul", the one which dislikes China, was caused by the 1000 year occupation with China, which literally nearly destroyed our ancient culture except for small renments, and their every-century invasions.

so, yes. nationalism, in the end, can be bad or good.

i think this thread could turn ugly real soon, and suggest perhaps it be closed.

 

[m4gill4]

^^ good point. Many cultures have been subjected to attempts at destruction. Many have been successfully removed from the earth. I only bring up Poland because their suffering was the worst in recent memory. Although 1000 years of rule by the Chinese invaders can't be a picnic either... but more than 1 out of 5 poles were murdered not including military losses. Thats rough...

People like to say the Poles are weak and foolish. I think they are among the bravest and most resilient people on earth.

edit: ...and also worthy of a civ imho

 

[TheLastOne36]

they tried to wipe our culture out, or at least make it more "French-like". thats why Vietnamese like eating French bread sandwhiches to this day, even the commoners.

The french bread eating part cracked me up.

 

[cybrxkhan]

well, I personally think the Vietnamese arent the most bravest people on earth, although I consider my countrymen perhaps one of the most stubborn.

but then again, thats just nationalistic opinoin.

i wouldn't say the Poles are "the most", but as you said, "among them". perhaps that could be true. perhaps it is.

EDIT:

The french bread eating part cracked me up.

its true! and thats why we like coffee... we (well, at least the older generations) like classical guitar music, we have cafes too, 5% of our technical terms are from French (the other 94% from Chinese), yea...

and wait a moment, aren't you supposed to be doing civs?

 

[dutchking]

Voted for Poland. National Pride! I have to se my country win a vote!

Your really the only one who's "Nationalistic". I say the Oranje Mafia. This poll is kinda annoying...In real life it depends on who your talking to.

and wait a moment, aren't you supposed to be doing civs?

Yeah... I'll be done tomorrow, promise, had a long day, just got home from le Airport. I'll be done with the cold war too...maybe...

 

[Spearthrower]

I deplore nationalism, but in Poland's case, I would say that it is quite justified, given their brutal history. I can't think of a Nation on earth that has had it quite as bad as the Polish for the last 400+ odd years.

Their fate was especially cruel at the hands of the Russians, which is why the comment about West Russia in the poll is terribly offensive, even to I who am not Polish.

Their nationalism, then, is quite forgivable. Who can blame them for desiring a strong national identity when their entire nation was systematically plundered and razed by the Nazis, all teachers/leftists/intellectuals murdered by the Nazis. Then, just as the Red Army approached Poland, they advised the Polish Underground to rise up against the nazis, and that they would recieve help from the Red Army. Instead, the Red Army sat on their bums and let the Polish Resistance be slaughtered by the Nazis, knowing that this way the Polish resistance would not be able to Oppose the coming Communist dictatorship which Moscow would impose on the Poles. For the next 50 years, the poles would live in a Communist police state.

Not to mention the fact that all of Poland's "allies" stood by and allowed this to happen so as not to anger their WWII allies the Soviets. If I were a Pole, I would hate and mistrust foreigners also.

Whoever made that "West Russia" comment is truly ignorant and should be ashamed of themselves.

I would say that this is an explanation why rather than an excuse. It definitely explains why the education system is geared towards the forging of a unified Polish identity when the state was undermined and destroyed a number of times..... however, while it is understandable, the Polish guys on this forum need to start reading between the lines when they come into contact with non-Poles who have non-nationalistic facts to hand. It's a hard process, but a necessary one.

 

[Quildavyr]

May i ask,why i am not an poll option?

 

[RedRalph]

Because you arent a nation. but even if you were the personification of Turkey, you dont seem that nationalistic! Thats why I put in A.N. other!

 

[RedRalph]

M4gill4...

especially hard fate at the hands of the Russians? Did the Russians murder 6 million of them? I can think of at least one nation which mistreated Poland far more than russia...

 

[Quildavyr]

Umm,you are right.I wanted,just get elected

 

[Legat]

@m4gill4:

I said many times that I'm not against Poland. I also stated that I'm not against it's inclusion in Civ4. I know many Poles in real life and they were all nice collegues and friends.
Now about the thing with "West Russia": TheLastOne36 often stated that the term "Russian" is an insult to him. Now isn't that an insult itself? Face it, he and some other Poles here (not all!) are nationalists and racists and if they make such comments they have to accept that similar comments come back to them.
The comment about West Russia was half jokingly and half because it's already in the poll. I won't apologize for this because in the world I live in the terms "Russian" and "German" aren't insults (actually I think he should apologize because threatening with murder is a bigger offence than calling someone "Russian"). I myself have been called to be from many nations in my life because people didn't know where I'm really from. I never felt insulted because of this nor did I run amok.
I know that Poles have suffered a lot during WWII, but that doesn't give TheLastOne36 or others who weren't in the war the right to insult other people who weren't in the war either.

 

[RedRalph]

I put that in as a joke, maybe one that dosent translate so well to non Irish people. sometimes, Irish people who are percieved to have particularly "British" mannerisms, get called "West brits" by other Irish people.... its a fairly low level insult, some posh people here would describe themselves as such. So, I apologise to any Poles I have offended, it should have been "West Belarussians"

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Losing 20-25% population in war is nothing spectacular. Germany lost more in the 30 yrs war. Countless countires have lost 2/3 of their population in medieval time wars.

The problem is you don't know that because there's a lot of history and little education. That's why the nation threads here turn into flamewars, everyone thinks him correct out of his narrow point of view.

 

[RedRalph]

Poland was "utterly destroyed". The Germans had no desire to "assimilate" the Poles, as they regarded poles to be a lesser race, unfit to be German citizens, and indeed useful only as quasi slave labor. Polands major schools, libraries, Palaces, their government buildings, were all ransacked, and then destroyed for no reason than to deprive the Poles of these buildings. Polands leaders and intellectuals were murdered so that the poles would have no ability to unite against their enemies. So I would argue that Poland was indeed "utterly destroyed" in a way no other country has been, ever.

Here is an excellent article detailing the all horrors which Poland suffered from 1939 until the fall of communism in the 1990's under Germany and Russia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Poland_(1939-1945)

"Over 6 million Polish citizens - nearly 21.4% of Poland's population - died between 1939 and 1945.[3] Over 90% of the death toll came through non-military losses, as most of the civilians were targeted by various deliberate actions by Germans and Soviets.[3] There is some controversy as to whether Soviet policies were harsher than those of the Nazis.[4][5]"

"The Nazis held that the Slavs, like the Jews, were subhuman. "All Poles," Hitler swore, "will disappear from the world." On August 22, 1939, one week before the Nazi invasion of Poland, Hitler gave the Wehrmacht their instructions: "Kill without pity or mercy all men, women and children of Polish descent or language.... Be merciless. Be brutal. It is necessary to proceed with maximum severity. The war is to be a war of annihilation."

How can there be any controversy whether the Soviet policies were harsher than Germanies? Germany was trying to exterminate the Poles, the USSR merely wanted to control them... after 6 years of Germany rule 6m Poles died, how many died when the country was under Soviet control? there is no way imaginably that the soviet govt treated the Poles worse than the Germans did

 

[TheLastOne36]

@m4gill4:

I said many times that I'm not against Poland. I also stated that I'm not against it's inclusion in Civ4. I know many Poles in real life and they were all nice collegues and friends.
Now about the thing with "West Russia": TheLastOne36 often stated that the term "Russian" is an insult to him. Now isn't that an insult itself? Face it, he and some other Poles here (not all!) are nationalists and racists and if they make such comments they have to accept that similar comments come back to them.
The comment about West Russia was half jokingly and half because it's already in the poll. I won't apologize for this because in the world I live in the terms "Russian" and "German" aren't insults (actually I think he should apologize because threatening with murder is a bigger offence than calling someone "Russian"). I myself have been called to be from many nations in my life because people didn't know where I'm really from. I never felt insulted because of this nor did I run amok.
I know that Poles have suffered a lot during WWII, but that doesn't give TheLastOne36 or others who weren't in the war the right to insult other people who weren't in the war either.

I didn't say that. I said that when people call us Russians or Germans it's an insult to us. And it happens quite often. I understand the Russian slav pole slav thing, but the german thing is pure ignorance.

 

[m4gill4]

Losing 20-25% population in war is nothing spectacular. Germany lost more in the 30 yrs war. Countless countires have lost 2/3 of their population in medieval time wars.

The problem is you don't know that because there's a lot of history and little education. That's why the nation threads here turn into flamewars, everyone thinks him correct out of his narrow point of view.

Ahh ad hominem attacks against my education! Fantastic! Well I'll be the first to tell you that I dropped out of college, but I would also like to tell you that while losing 20-25% of population may not be spectacular (and I'm about to do some fact-checking there), how many times in history has that 20-25% amounted to 6 million citizens of one country?

 

[Jo Girbaud]

How can there be any controversy whether the Soviet policies were harsher than Germanies? Germany was trying to exterminate the Poles, the USSR merely wanted to control them...

The Nazis launched a calculated campaign to exterminate the educated elite of Polish society and racially undesirable elements. The German Army perpetrated this massacre, as well as the more intently genocidal Nazi SS. There were plans to exterminate the Poles entirely, after they had outlived their usefulness and the Jews had already been annihilated. Polish children were not allowed to go to high school or college. The Catholic Church in Poland was suppressed.Ironically, though, many of the Polish officers who were Jewish did avoid the Holocaust and survive the war, having been in the custody of the regular German Army Wehrmacht, rather than that of the Nazi SS.

The method of capture, detention, and extermination of Poles by the Soviets is also important to consider. These victims were not just Polish officers and cadets who had surrendered to the Red Army in the field. They also included reservists and other officials who had been arrested in their homes in the Soviet-occupied zone of Poland. As it was, many Polish officers had been murdered immediately upon their capture, in spite of Soviet assurances of good treatment, particularly when their units had successfully battled against the Soviet invasion. Polish civilians suffered many Red Army atrocities as well.

 

[RedRalph]

Yeah they did, but surely you arent contending the red army and NKVD were a bigger force of evil in Poland than the wehrmacht, SS and einsatzgruppen?

 

[Jo Girbaud]

Yeah they did, but surely you arent contending the red army and NKVD were a bigger force of evil in Poland than the wehrmacht, SS and einsatzgruppen?

Sixty years ago, a decade before Hitler’s crimes, the Soviet Red Army and NKVD herded millions of civilians in Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, and Muslim regions of the Caucasus to concentration camps in Siberia where average life expectancy was six months. Mass murder is not only a hallmark of communism, but a sine qua non. This century, communist regimes killed at least 80 million of their own citizens, more deaths than all wars combined.
Communism, the 20th century’s greatest evil, was defeated in 1989-1991, but not destroyed. It awaits the darkness, ready to rise again from its temporary grave.

Bottom line: Communism does not deserve be a civic in the game, no more than Nazism does.