Who makes a swastika building? i mean really...

[Rambuchan]

I wrote a term paper on the history of the swastika, and why it should be up-held.

Great post Keirador, we get a real sense of what your essay was about from that

 

[wit>trope]

Anyone who wears a swastika t-shirt in public in the United States and tries to explain it as admiration for a "beautiful geometric shape" deserves a good beating. Maybe next time I go to the mall I'll wear a white cape and hood. It's a perfectly normal means of expression and we shouldn't let the KKK ruin the elegance of pointy white hoods, now should we? Boy oh boy will the Black people like THAT explanation.

I don't remember for sure but I think in one or more of the Lord of the Rings movies a good wizard wears white cape/robe and a pointy white thing on his head. Assuming that this did happen in the Lord of the Rings movies I can say that the thought of KKK didn't even occur to me while watching it and I bet it didn't occur to anyone else either. See! The Lord of the Rings director was able to see that letting the KKK or the Nazis or whatever ruin beautiful geometric shapes or artistic forms is letting them win. Even if this wasn't in the Lord of the Rings movies I know I've seen good wizards wearing white robe/cape and a white point thing on their head before in other movies or book covers or something.

You are apparently even more strict than the Catholic Church which once had an Index of Forbidden Books. You want to have an Index of Forbidden Gemeotrical Shapes!

 

[wit>trope]

Looks like anice building design to me. And the shape was originally used by the occult IIRC, and i have nothing against the shape.
And i dont think they designed the building thinking 'Now, if anybody in the future takes an aerial photograph of this building, how can we offend them?'

Actually I believe architects take into account "aerial" views. You don't even need to be up in the air to see the beautiful shape. You could be up on a small hill or something. Also, any lover of art or architecture or gemoetrical shapes or beauty will be able to absorb the full richness of the shape even without any kind of birds eye view ... for example if you walk down a street that's shaped like an L, you know that just from walking through it; you don't have to have any kind of birds eye view to know it and realize it. Or if you walk down a street that's shaped like a spiral, you'll be able to tell just walking through it, without a birds eye view.

 

[wit>trope]

Well, for one thing, the Nazis aren't winning anything because they're long gone. I guess there are still neo-Nazis, but no one really cares about them.

And even if Hitler and his ilk were still alive, and/or you want to consider the neo-Nazis, their goals include such things as exterminating the Jews and preserving the Aryan race, not perverting the swastica. I don't think Hitler, if he revisited the Earth, would be thinking, "YES! They don't like the swastica! My plan worked!" More like he'd be thinking, "NO! There are still Jews!"

And even if Hitler would think the former and not the latter, should we really care? I mean, he wants a fricking symbol, so we might as well let him have it. That is unless: a) The benefits to use the symbol ourselves are considerable. For example, we're considering using the symbol in a play about traditional Hindu culture, and the swastica would be necessary to be historically correct. b) The costs are low. For example, this building the thread is dedicated to: You can't even tell unless you look from above.

If neither of those are the case, deliberately using the swastica just to upset the reincarnated Hitler would be comparable to being confronted by a man who points a gun at your head and wants $10, and you keep your $10 at the cost of your life. (Okay, that's a bit extreme, but you get the idea.) If someone were to have such strong principles that they refuse to let a thug like this hypothetical man win anything---well, I think they're more crazy than admirable.

Now, the victim in the above scenario gave up his life, so to compare the swastica thing with that would only make sense if there are costs to using the swastica. Well, the cost would simply be people getting offended. You might argue that people shouldn't get offended, because it's just a geometric shape. But I think that's completely wrong; it's not just a geometric shape. It is a symbol, and to strip away all meaning from a symbol and just look at its basic shape is completely ignoring one of the things that makes us human (the creation of symbols in the first place). If it's silly to think "evil" when looking at the swastica, is it equally silly to think "America" when looking at the stars and stripes, or to think "wealth" when looking at a green piece of paper with Geoge Washington on it, or to think "Darn, she's taken" when seeing a beautiful woman with a diamond ring on her ring finger?

It's not silly to think "Australia" when looking at the Union Jack shape that's part of her flag, But it IS silly to think "Australia" when looking at the Union Jack shape that's part of the United Kingdom's flag. A geometrical shape is ALSO a symbol ONLY WHEN it is USED by someone AS A PARTICULAR SYMBOL in communication with another person. To give another example, when you see the Ying Yang shape on the Korean flag, it's not silly to think "Korea" but it IS silly to think "Korea" when you see the same shape in an article in an encyclopedia that's about the concept of ying and yang and not about any country. So with the Union Jack shape and with the Ying Yang shape as well as countless other shapes (like the filled circle that happens to be on Japan's flag ... no one thinks "Japan" when he sees a filled circle in other contexts) we are all able to not be so obsessive as to immediately, universally, unflinchingingly associated a shape with ONE SINGLE SOLE symbol and never be able to see it symbolize anything else or be considered as a mathematical object of beauty in its own right. What gives? It's the PC culture, unfortunately.

Suppose that Germany had used the Knot shape as its dominating symbole instead of the Four-L shape. Suppose also that the Knot shape was given the same PC stigma as the Four-L shape is given for us. Guess what? That would mean a WHOLE BRANCH of mathematics called "Knot Theory" or whatever it's called would not have been developed. That's right. There's actually an advanced branch of mathematics that studies the properties of knots. So being for banishing the Four-L shape or any other mathematical shape is advocating for a return to a kind of DARK AGES.

Hehe, I'm not that brave either.

The thing is, though, that eventually the symbolic meaning of symbols goes away. I doubt the swastica is any exception; I imagine in 250 years no one will think twice after seeing a swastica. Sure, if you, I, and a bunch of other people started wearing swastica T-Shirts, that'd speed up the process, but I don't see any reason to bother doing so.

Well with all the "Never Forget" slogans associated with it and all the museums, I doubt it would happen in even 250 years. Maybe in like 20,000 years. You probably wouldn't have seen any reason to study knots but the study of knots is now a whole advanced branch of mathematics. Same for the four-l shaped object -- who knows? Maybe some new mathematical understanding and beauty would come from it if it were studied. Of course no one can study it and no one can publish an article in a math journal about it because they'd get flamed by the PC police. It's amazing how similar we are to the "Dark Ages"

 

[wit>trope]

That is very, very different from this issue. We are talking about the biggest single orchestrated massacre in world history, as far as I know. Not blowing up a few hundred people.

Communism actually killed like 10 times more civilian people than Germany did.

I guess we need to get rid of all the hammer shape hammers and make them some new kind of shape

 

[wit>trope]

My moneys on the Clan did it, or maybe NAZI ALIENS

Nazi Aliens is actually part of the plot for some Star Trek Enterprise episodes

 

[Pontiuth Pilate]

I don't remember for sure but I think in one or more of the Lord of the Rings movies a good wizard wears white cape/robe and a pointy white thing on his head. Assuming that this did happen in the Lord of the Rings movies I can say that the thought of KKK didn't even occur to me while watching it and I bet it didn't occur to anyone else either.

Well, first of all, Gandalf the White is usually bareheaded; it's Gandalf the GREY who had a wizard's hat. So of course Gandalf looks nothing like a Grand Wizard of the Klan.

A swastika, on the other hand, looks like a swastika.

I don't care what you say, if I see someone wearing a swastika T-shirt that isn't palpably Buddhist or Hindu, I will assume that person is a neo-Nazi. And guess what, I'll usually be right.

Just for reference, do you have swastika clothing or not?

 

[blackheart]

I don't care what you say, if I see someone wearing a swastika T-shirt that isn't palpably Buddhist or Hindu, I will assume that person is a neo-Nazi. And guess what, I'll usually be right.

By Buddhist and Hindu I assume you are referring to the color of their skin and their ethnicity... But there are white, caucasian Buddhists too.

 

[wit>trope]

Well, first of all, Gandalf the White is usually bareheaded

Ok "usually" but not always so my point is still valid.

; it's Gandalf the GREY who had a wizard's hat. So of course Gandalf looks nothing like a Grand Wizard of the Klan.

And by the same token the Four L shaped building discussed in this thread "looks nothing like the swastika symbol that is used in the context of Nazi insignia"

A swastika, on the other hand, looks like a swastika.

That's like saying that a filled red circle, looks just like a filled red circle. When I see a filled red circle, I don't automatically think "Japan" even though that's the exact shape and color that's on Japan's flag.

I don't care what you say, if I see someone wearing a swastika T-shirt that isn't palpably Buddhist or Hindu, I will assume that person is a neo-Nazi. And guess what, I'll usually be right.

Neo-Nazis are criticized for being prejudiced. Ironically YOU are the one who is being like what Neo-Nazis are criticized for since YOU say here that YOU would be prejudiced against someone who wears a T-shirt with a Four-L shaped design. "Prejudiced" means PRE-JUDGING -- making a judgment about something before one has all the facts. If you see someone wearing a shirt with a Four-L shape, why not just ASK HER or him why she's wearing it or just RESERVE JUDGMENT until you know why.

Just for reference, do you have swastika clothing or not?

I do not have any "swastika clothing." I do however enjoy playing Wolfenstein

 

[Pontiuth Pilate]

By Buddhist and Hindu I assume you are referring to the color of their skin and their ethnicity... But there are white, caucasian Buddhists too.

Nope. I mean the style of the swastika. The Hindu swastika is curved and has the four dots; the German swastika is in a boldface style.

 

[Pontiuth Pilate]

Ok "usually" but not always so my point is still valid.

I said usually because I'm not sure if he ever had a white hat. But I don't remember him wearing one and I can't find a picture, so, safe assumption.

And by the same token the Four L shaped building discussed in this thread "looks nothing like the swastika symbol that is used in the context of Nazi insignia"

Correct, I'm not pissed about the building, but about what YOU said, that the German-style swastika has any meaningful associations OTHER than Nazism.

That's like saying that a filled red circle, looks just like a filled red circle. When I see a filled red circle, I don't automatically think "Japan" even though that's the exact shape and color that's on Japan's flag.

A swastika is far more recognizable than a circle, and it is associated with a regime of mass genocide.

This just seems to float by you, eh? Well, at least you haven't sunk to the level of Holocaust denier. Yet.

Neo-Nazis are criticized for being prejudiced. Ironically YOU are the one who is being like what Neo-Nazis are criticized for since YOU say here that YOU would be prejudiced against someone who wears a T-shirt with a Four-L shaped design.

So,

1. my assumption that someone who likes to wear swastikas is a neoNazi

is EQUIVALENT to

2. prejudice against "n*****s" and "filthy Jews"?

RESERVE JUDGMENT until you know why.

Bullcrap. If I see someone wearing the robes of the Klan, I'm not going to "reserve judgement" until I find out why they like dressing like a f***ing Grand Wizard.

 

[wit>trope]

Correct, I'm not pissed about the building, but about what YOU said, that the German-style swastika has any meaningful associations OTHER than Nazism.

OK then what if it was the same shape but a different color?

A swastika is far more recognizable than a circle, and it is associated with a regime of mass genocide.

Well Japan was about as bad as Germany during WWII. I believe they did medical experiments just like the Germans did or things like that ... sex slaves and stuff.

Bullcrap. If I see someone wearing the robes of the Klan, I'm not going to "reserve judgement" until I find out why they like dressing like a f***ing Grand Wizard.

I'd hate to be accused of a crime and have you on a jury Defense attorney asks the juror, "Can you reserve judgement until I present my whole case?" Juror responds: "Bullcrap. If I see someone who looks that guilty I'm not going to reserve judgement until I find out about what you have to say."

 

[Pontiuth Pilate]

I'd hate to be accused of a crime and have you on a jury Defense attorney asks the juror, "Can you reserve judgement until I present my whole case?" Juror responds: "Bullcrap. If I see someone who looks that guilty I'm not going to reserve judgement until I find out about what you have to say."

Don't be ridiculous. Someone who makes the deliberate choice to go out in public dressed in Klan robes either is a Klansman or wants everyone to think he is. Same with the swastika and neoNazism. My response to neoNazis or people who want me think they're neoNazis is, well, unprintable.

Maybe for you it's different, but I feel that racism and Nazism are outside the bounds of reasonable debate: these people deserve no civil response and they deserve no "fair hearing." The only reason they should be allowed to hold mass rallies is so people can go spit on them.

 

[nonconformist]

Well Japan was about as bad as Germany during WWII. I believe they did medical experiments just like the Germans did or things like that ... sex slaves and stuff.

There's a difference here-Imperial Japan still exists, Nazi Germany doesn't.

 

[Oerdin]

Looks like some place in California or Mexico. I've never heard of it before.

Coronado. Ironically, with a older white population & a large Jewish minority.

 

[aneeshm]

Nope. I mean the style of the swastika. The Hindu swastika is curved and has the four dots; the German swastika is in a boldface style.

It isn't curved - just the vertices are usually a bit softer . And the four dots are not strictly necessary .

 

[Stylesjl]

Who this topic is months old!

 

[Jawz II]

Nazi Aliens is actually part of the plot for some Star Trek Enterprise episodes

wow 5 posts in a row. you must have alot to say.

 

[fing0lfin]

There is nothing bad in the swastica. It's very ancient symbol. It was even used in some churches.
And there are many kinds of swastika, opened, closed, etc.
The nazi symbol is black swastica, in white circle, on red background.


P.S. Nothing should be denayed only because it was used bu the nazis. Should we say that the eagle on the american crest is bad, beacuse on of the nazi symbols was an eagle holding swastica?