Why "All Lives Matters" is wrong

[W|M]

Riots are the language of the unheard

 

[Lexicus]

First of all, can you substantiate this assertion (about "most of the enlightenment philosophers..." participated in overt racist atrocities against minorities.)? Secondly you are committing an ad hominem against a group of people who were by and large abolitionists and/or inspired such in people like Abraham Lincoln.

LOL. Well, I can tell this discussion isn't going to be any fun Let's see, just to start with, John Locke owned stock in the Royal Africa Company and the Bahama Adventures Company, both incorporated for the purpose of trading slaves across the Atlantic.

I will grant it is true that abolitionism, free-soilism, and indeed socialism and anarchism are the intellectual heirs of that same enlightenment tradition.

I am fully prepared to grapple with any actual historical baggage -to the extent that it is somehow relevant to what we are discussing here, but I will not assume historical baggage that you baldly assert exists.

Well, if you knew a few things about history you'd know I was "baldly assert[ing]" them because they're true.

the be-all and end-all of your intellectual ability

Identity, chum, identity.

Riots are the language of the unheard

That doesn't mean they ought to be encouraged or celebrated. My preferred method for limiting their occurrence involves dealing with the underlying causes, though, and not meeting force with more force.

 

[SkeleTony]

Well, that, or they think "rationalism" is a five-dollar way of saying "calls it like I sees it", and you're not sure this is how language works.

That would probably be my contention.

Then you are just engaging in bigotry and prejudice. You are presupposing motivations which do not seem to actually be in effect.

Michael Brown wasn't locked up, though, and "or" seems far too small a word to bridge the gulf between those two outcomes. At least, I imagine, so far as his friends and family are concerned.

This is absurd.
The kid strong-arm robbed a store for starters. This of course does not warrant being shot to death. But afterwards, upon seeing a cop trying to question him assaulted the police officer and tried to take his gun. If it is one lesson we have learned in the past it is that letting criminals and violent people get a police officer's gun results in terrible things most of the time. What if Brown had managed to get the cop's gun? What do you think he would have done with it at that moment? Handed it back and put his hands behind his back?! what if he tried to shoot the cop but accidentally hit someone's kid?

I know...I know, hypothetical (that has happened before) and no one wants to deal with hypotheticals until they happen within their family but still....

It's all very well adding such qualifications in abstract, declaring yourself most deeply in favour of due process and reasonable doubt, but that's going to be precious little consolation for those attending the funeral.

I am tempted to say "Who cares?" here but I won't be so crass. Instead I will point out that Aaron Hernandez' mom is very upset that her son is in prison for life for murdering -who knows how many people- and Ted Bundy's wife may be distraught over his death. You would have a point here if we were discussing some innocent kid who was wrongly killed, but we are not.

 

[Farm Boy]

Riots are the language of the unheard

Right. Which is why I talked about New York being a "better neighborhood." Did you assume I was criticizing black people with that?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Well I do not have the inclination to contest your unqualified feelings about rationalism. I am not exactly sure what you mean by "the be-all and end-all of your intellectual ability" so I will ignore that for now.

For clarity, he said "identity" not "ability." You did sort of come right out with the shorthand "I am a rationalist." Though it may be a little fast and loose to call that "the be all and end all of your intellectual identity" it wasn't the thing that a reference to "the be all and end all of your intellectual ability" could be taken as. Of such misreadings complex problems are made.

 

[Lexicus]

"citizenship and morality require taxes for enriching politicians and their corporate donors".

When did I say something like that?

 

[SkeleTony]

Justifying the police murdering a man who was running away because he was afraid of getting arrested due to an outstanding warrant for child support, because getting arrested would get him fired from his job that he got to pay his child support, on the basis of a half-baked hypothetical scenario in which the man runs a bunch of people over in his car is like fascism 101

Who justified that killing? I know I have pointed to that as one of a few examples of actual police wrongdoing in recent years (another being that Carolina officer who tried to plant his taser on a guy he killed). The point I was making was that cops have an incredibly difficult job and we are quick to call them "racist murderers" all the time whether they deserve it or not. So this young cop is faced with a guy trying to flee the scene in his car and he does not know why this guy is fleeing, what he may have already done and/or what he will do speeding away in his car. Yes the cop was justly put away for his action but to dismiss the hypotheticals indicates you have never witnessed a police chase and have no idea what criminals will do to others to try to escape.

AGAIN, I am not at all justifying the cop shooting that guy but seriously, in this day and age when the TV news is reporting ad nauseum that there are racist murdering police waging a war on blacks and this black man tries to flee in his car because he was NOT guilty of any crime but still feared talking to the cop would get him arrested?!

I am calling BS on that.

 

[Lexicus]

Who justified that killing? I know I have pointed to that as one of a few examples of actual police wrongdoing in recent years (another being that Carolina officer who tried to plant his taser on a guy he killed). The point I was making was that cops have an incredibly difficult job and we are quick to call them "racist murderers" all the time whether they deserve it or not. So this young cop is faced with a guy trying to flee the scene in his car and he does not know why this guy is fleeing, what he may have already done and/or what he will do speeding away in his car. Yes the cop was justly put away for his action but to dismiss the hypotheticals indicates you have never witnessed a police chase and have no idea what criminals will do to others to try to escape.

The man was fleeing on foot, and running away from his car as far as I am aware. Slager was also not particularly young.
Despite your continued protestations you are justifying the killing right now and moreover doing so based on an incorrect apprehension of the facts of the case. That makes me a little sick to be honest.

Oh, and not only have I "witnessed" a police chase, I have been the object of one...

 

[SkeleTony]

LOL. Well, I can tell this discussion isn't going to be any fun Let's see, just to start with, John Locke owned stock in the Royal Africa Company and the Bahama Adventures Company, both incorporated for the purpose of trading slaves across the Atlantic.

I will grant it is true that abolitionism, free-soilism, and indeed socialism and anarchism are the intellectual heirs of that same enlightenment tradition.

And John Locke described himself as a "rationalist" (which usage of the term was he employing BTW?)?

Well, if you knew a few things about history you'd know I was "baldly assert[ing]" them because they're true.

I hear the same 'argument' for Creationism, Racism, Homeopathy and dozens of other claims and positions. The 'If you know what I know you would know it is true!' line does not work for me.

Identity

, chum, identity.

Yes, my typo. Does not change my point though.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Who justified that killing? I know I have pointed to that as one of a few examples of actual police wrongdoing in recent years (another being that Carolina officer who tried to plant his taser on a guy he killed). The point I was making was that cops have an incredibly difficult job and we are quick to call them "racist murderers" all the time whether they deserve it or not. So this young cop is faced with a guy trying to flee the scene in his car and he does not know why this guy is fleeing, what he may have already done and/or what he will do speeding away in his car. Yes the cop was justly put away for his action but to dismiss the hypotheticals indicates you have never witnessed a police chase and have no idea what criminals will do to others to try to escape.

AGAIN, I am not at all justifying the cop shooting that guy but seriously, in this day and age when the TV news is reporting ad nauseum that there are racist murdering police waging a war on blacks and this black man tries to flee in his car because he was NOT guilty of any crime but still feared talking to the cop would get him arrested?!

I am calling BS on that.

This might be the problem. There might not be "fear of getting arrested." There might be fear of a "little backseat therapy." There might be fear of an extended "I'll antagonize you until you break so I can then really antagonize you." There are all sorts of reasons to not want to talk to a cop, and black men have direct access to a lot more of those fears than most other people have.

 

[SkeleTony]

The man was fleeing on foot, and running away from his car as far as I am aware. Slager was also not particularly young.
Despite your continued protestations you are justifying the killing right now and moreover doing so based on an incorrect apprehension of the facts of the case. That makes me a little sick to be honest.

Oh, and not only have I "witnessed" a police chase, I have been the object of one...

We are talking about different cases then. The one I was referring to was captured on the policeman's body camera and showed a black man with long hair trying to flee from a young cop who was questioning him about something and the cop shot him through his car window and killed him.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Yes, my typo. Does not change my point though.

Well, it should have. If it was a typo and you read it correctly there would be really no reason for you to respond as if you were offended. If you misread it that would at least make sense, and be easy enough to correct.

 

[Lexicus]

We are talking about different cases then. The one I was referring to was captured on the policeman's body camera and showed a black man with long hair trying to flee from a young cop who was questioning him about something and the cop shot him through his car window and killed him.

You're going to need to be more specific. If you're talking about the one I think you're talking about the man was actually shot for reaching into the glove compartment to comply with the officer's requests for his vehicle registration.

 

[Berzerker]

No, I don't want that officer back on the streets. I want officers that are that inept removed from patrol. But do I have a problem with people who attack and attempt to disarm officers during stops winding up dead? No. No I don't.

Why was the cop inept?

 

[Berzerker]

When did I say something like that?

I dont know that you did, but would you say 'that' was a fascist statement? I'm just kidding, this stems from arguments in the taxes are not theft thread.

 

[Lexicus]

I dont know that you did, but would you say 'that' was a fascist statement? I'm just kidding, this stems from arguments in the taxes are not theft thread.

Statist, certainly, fascist probably not.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Why was the cop inept?

Poor training plus a philosophy of "if anything goes wrong we can shoot our way out."

 

[SkeleTony]

This might be the problem. There might not be "fear of getting arrested." There might be fear of a "little backseat therapy." There might be fear of an extended "I'll antagonize you until you break so I can then really antagonize you." There are all sorts of reasons to not want to talk to a cop, and black men have direct access to a lot more of those fears than most other people have.

Very doubtful. In the 20th century, up until the 1990s I would buy this (to an extent depending on how far back you are going) but now it does not stand to reason. This is another conspiracy theory and fails for the same reasons they all fail. How would any cop pull off such things?! In this day when everyone is actively searching for police misconduct, most cops go through extremely intensive education and training on how to deal with situations in the proper manner and the reward for being a whistle blowing cop is MUCH greater than whatever satisfaction you imagine a cop to get from beating innocent people and there are literally cameras everywhere. Seriously how could cops pull this off even as a hypothetical?

I am going from personal anecdotes here so I understand you doubting me but I come from a predominately black family. My father, brother, sister, niece, cousins, ...all black(my mom and me are the only white people I know in my family). As such I have almost always (I say "almost" because I myself find any white man claiming to have never had racist feelings or perceptions doubtful to say the least) been anti-racist. Most of the friends I have had in my life (by a very large number) have been black, Hispanic, Asian...non-white. I have spoken with a LOT of minorities (mostly black men) and from that I get the distinct impression that there are very few of them who actually fear the police in the way you describe and even a handful who think the BLM movement is a silly trend they aim to take advantage of if they ever get arrested (again) because this minority among blacks are thinking "Free money for life!", just like the guy in Baltimore who tried to slam his head against the police van so he could claim he was beaten but accidentally killed himself via a protruding bolt.

As Morgan Freeman and Lil' Wayne tried to say to some degree there is a LOT less actual racism going on than there is talk of racism. Sure we can look at Trump's election as indicating the converse but again I think this is the panic-stricken death throes of the white supremacist movement. They are looking at all they once were familiar with and fear the changes that have come and are still coming. They fear being the minority.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Very doubtful. In the 20th century, up until the 1990s I would buy this (to an extent depending on how far back you are going) but now it does not stand to reason. This is another conspiracy theory and fails for the same reasons they all fail. How would any cop pull off such things?! In this day when everyone is actively searching for police misconduct, most cops go through extremely intensive education and training on how to deal with situations in the proper manner and the reward for being a whistle blowing cop is MUCH greater than whatever satisfaction you imagine a cop to get from beating innocent people and there are literally cameras everywhere. Seriously how could cops pull this off even as a hypothetical?

I am going from personal anecdotes here so I understand you doubting me but I come from a predominately black family. My father, brother, sister, niece, cousins, ...all black(my mom and me are the only white people I know in my family). As such I have almost always (I say "almost" because I myself find any white man claiming to have never had racist feelings or perceptions doubtful to say the least) been anti-racist. Most of the friends I have had in my life (by a very large number) have been black, Hispanic, Asian...non-white. I have spoken with a LOT of minorities (mostly black men) and from that I get the distinct impression that there are very few of them who actually fear the police in the way you describe and even a handful who think the BLM movement is a silly trend they aim to take advantage of if they ever get arrested (again) because this minority among blacks are thinking "Free money for life!", just like the guy in Baltimore who tried to slam his head against the police van so he could claim he was beaten but accidentally killed himself via a protruding bolt.

As Morgan Freeman and Lil' Wayne tried to say to some degree there is a LOT less actual racism going on than there is talk of racism. Sure we can look at Trump's election as indicating the converse but again I think this is the panic-stricken death throes of the white supremacist movement. They are looking at all they once were familiar with and fear the changes that have come and are still coming. They fear being the minority.

Move to Los Angeles County.

 

[Berzerker]

Statist, certainly, fascist probably not.

Well, what is fascism if not a combination of state and industry? I thought statists wanted state solutions, not corporate solutions.

Poor training plus a philosophy of "if anything goes wrong we can shoot our way out."

What did the cop do to deserve being called inept?