Why are Egyptians the "Wonder Builders?"

[noto2]

I'm currently working on a mod with the single purpose of rebalancing Civ traits/UU's/UB's/UI's

I got to thinking... why is it that in the Civ franchise Egypt has always been the wonder building civ? Even according to the game's own logic, if any civ should be a wonder builder, it would be Greece (Oracle, Parthenon, Statue of Zeus, Temple of Athena...). All Egypt's got are the Pyramids. Even Babylon has the Hanging Gardens. Babylon could have been the wonder building civ just as easily as Egypt. Am I missing something here?

 

[Enginseer]

I'm currently working on a mod with the single purpose of rebalancing Civ traits/UU's/UB's/UI's

I got to thinking... why is it that in the Civ franchise Egypt has always been the wonder building civ? Even according to the game's own logic, if any civ should be a wonder builder, it would be Greece (Oracle, Parthenon, Statue of Zeus, Temple of Athena...). All Egypt's got are the Pyramids. Even Babylon has the Hanging Gardens. Babylon could have been the wonder building civ just as easily as Egypt. Am I missing something here?

Because they get +20% production toward wonders. Not to mention their start bias tends to avoid forests and jungles which helps you start near grasslands or plains which can often spawn up bonus resources of stone which are a good balance of yielding food and production.

Not sure why you're working on rebalancing the Civ traits when so many mods have done so anyway. Whichever, continue on.

 

[Firebug]

Queen Hatshepsut's Temple.
The Valley of the Kings.
The Sphinx.
A LOT of Pyramids.
The Karnak Temple complex.
Abu Simbel.
Mount Sinai.
Great Lighthouse.

to state some examples of the amazing ancient architecture Egyptians are known for.
Egypt built many wonders and were geniuses when it came to architecture. They were way before their time in construction.
Civ V wonders don't represent every actual real life wonder, there are so many more.
A Civ's UA is based on what they are known for in reality rather then in the game.

 

[noto2]

@Enginseer: dude.... I know the game makes them "wonder builders", my question is why Firaxis chose to give that bonus to Egypt and not someone else. I looked for civ balance mods and most mods completely change the game mechanics, which I don't want. As for the mods that specifically focus on civ/trait balancing, there is only one that is decent, in my opinion, and it touches only a few of the civs.

@Firebug: I said according to the game's logic, as in, the wonders that are actually in the game. Most of the ones you listed are not. Also, the Great Lighthouse was built in Alexandria, thus, by Greeks.

 

[bane_]

True.
While Alexandria is today the second (third? fourth? one of, at least) biggest city in Egypt, the Great Lighthouse was built during the Greek-Roman era.

 

[Tarmont]

Because monumental building projects are the most remarkable and recognizable feat of the ancient Egyptians. There's no "ingame" explanation for them receiving this trait; as you've said yourself the Greeks have the most wonders ingame (Even though that's not the most "recognizable thing" about their civilization, ergo, they don't get a bonus towards wonders). You're merely making a question that cannot be answered by phrasing it like that.

 

[Firebug]

As i said, a civ's design isn't based on what makes sense based on game content. Just because Egypt only has one world wonder (since apparently the Great Lighthouse being in Egypt, and probably being built by Egyptian builders, doesn't count) that doesn't mean they don't deserve to be represented as the wonder builders.

 

[LeeS]

While it is true that Alexandria was a Macedonian Splint placed on the Egyptian Tree, I think it is odd in the extreme to claim that the Great Lighthouse was built by Greeks. It was built by the racially admixtured population of Alexandria which was made up of a small minority of pure Macedonian ancestry, an approximately equally-distributed percentage of Macedonian-Egyptian ancestry and pure Egyptian ancestry, and a glut of small ancestral or racial minorities, among whom were people of Jewish semetic ancestry. The percentages of racial mixtures changed throughout the history of Alexandria prior to the fall of the Roman Empire(s), but pure Macedonian ancestry was always a very small proportion of the total city make-up. The wealth used in Alexandria to be able to afford such projects as the Great Lighthouse and the Great Harbor, the Great Library, etc., came off the backs of purely Egyptian populations (Pharoah in Egypt owned everything).

So far as claims to which ancient civilization should be most rightfully described as the 'Wonder Builder' civization, for the Mediterranean Peoples I think the Romans win hands-down. They are not normally considered 'wonder builders' because so many of their wonders were not temples and palaces and the like but rather triumphs of engineering. And quite a few of these were Aqueducts that bored straight through mountains with not more than about 6" total error in being a perfectly straight line through a given mountain in many cases. Others were the various great colosseums, each of which was an engineering marvel on its own, though I don't think the Romans referred to them as 'Colosseums' necessarily.

 

[Firebug]

So far as claims to which ancient civilization should be most rightfully described as the 'Wonder Builder' civization, for the Mediterranean Peoples I think the Romans win hands-down. They are not normally considered 'wonder builders' because so many of their wonders were not temples and palaces and the like but rather triumphs of engineering. And quite a few of these were Aqueducts that bored straight through mountains with not more than about 6" total error in being a perfectly straight line through a given mountain in many cases. Others were the various great colosseums, each of which was an engineering marvel on its own, though I don't think the Romans referred to them as 'Colosseums' necessarily.

But again, its possible that its because Egypt was creating massive wonders not only centuries before other meditteranean civilizations but also lasting so much longer as well. The Pyramid of Giza was constructed in 2580 bc and still stands to this day. work started on The Collosseum in Rome in 70AD and opened in 80AD and theres chunks missing.
Statue of Zeus isn't even standing anymore, Temple of Artemis, Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, all gone. The Hanging Gardens haven't even been found yet! so they might not exist.
Pyramids? still there. Sphinx? still there.
I mean, all of these wonders (Egyptian, Greek, Roman, etc.) were equally impressive and are great works of architecture. Its sad they didn't last long enough for us to have seen them, but clearly Egyptians, of all the civilizations in Civ V, are the definitive wonder builders.

 

[JFD]

So far as claims to which ancient civilization should be most rightfully described as the 'Wonder Builder' civization, for the Mediterranean Peoples I think the Romans win hands-down. They are not normally considered 'wonder builders' because so many of their wonders were not temples and palaces and the like but rather triumphs of engineering. And quite a few of these were Aqueducts that bored straight through mountains with not more than about 6" total error in being a perfectly straight line through a given mountain in many cases. Others were the various great colosseums, each of which was an engineering marvel on its own, though I don't think the Romans referred to them as 'Colosseums' necessarily.

Agreed, and that's to say nothing of the feat that is the Pantheon! The Egyptians may have longevity, but the Romans really pushed the architectural limits.

 

[Tarmont]

So far as claims to which ancient civilization should be most rightfully described as the 'Wonder Builder' civization, for the Mediterranean Peoples I think the Romans win hands-down. They are not normally considered 'wonder builders' because so many of their wonders were not temples and palaces and the like but rather triumphs of engineering. And quite a few of these were Aqueducts that bored straight through mountains with not more than about 6" total error in being a perfectly straight line through a given mountain in many cases. Others were the various great colosseums, each of which was an engineering marvel on its own, though I don't think the Romans referred to them as 'Colosseums' necessarily.

At the same time, isn't it neat that the Romans get a bonus towards normal buildings rather than wonders, passing a "We're so good at this we don't even consider this stuff to be wondrous" sort of vibe?

 

[Cyphose]

The way I see it, every Civ in the game is supposed to fit a specific theme--i.e. perhaps what they're most known for, or a unique aspect of their civilization in history that makes them stand out.

For example, Greece is City-State interactions. The Iroquois and Inca focus on the types of terrain that were the centerpiece of their civilizations. As we've mentioned, Egypt are "Wonder" (read: large monument) builders. Rome's got a lot of stuff going for it, but I think the theme they were going for is that their culture distinctly permeated everywhere they conquered--hence, "the Glory of Rome" is meant to spread what's already Roman (i.e. what's in the capital). It's this attempt at developing a theme for each in-game Civ (rather than just giving them general playstyle traits like in Civ4) that makes me like Civ5 over nearly all other Civs.

Unfortunately, in a lot of cases, Civilization doesn't do this "theme" well. France is the best example of this, in my opinion--it's an interesting concept that Paris is the City of Light, but it's just poorly executed. I'm currently in the process of making a mod that attempts to remedy this by messing with UAs, UBs, etc. to further develop a theme or focus for each Civ and make them more distinct from one another. I might throw up a WIP post soon because I'm starved for ideas, but it's got a long way to go. Suffice it to say, though, that I think a lot of valuable insight can be gained by looking into what theme or fantasy each Civ is designed to fit, not necessarily what stands out most to you.

 

[dunkleosteus]

The scale of the Pyramids and their age is so immense in comparison to other wonders. The Ancient Egyptians took wonder building to a level no one else ever has.

You could fit (with some folding to get into the corners) 87 parthenons into the largest of the pyramids.

 

[JFD]

It really comes down to what you consider most 'wondrous' - longevity, size, beauty, complexity, etc.

 

[noto2]

So if people think of Egypt as the "monument building civ" what is Babylon? I never thought of Babylon as being scientifically advanced for its time... I always thought it was just basically the largest and most organized society of its time, one of the very first civs. Were they scientifically advanced?

 

[Firebug]

 

[Cyphose]

So if people think of Egypt as the "monument building civ" what is Babylon? I never thought of Babylon as being scientifically advanced for its time... I always thought it was just basically the largest and most organized society of its time, one of the very first civs. Were they scientifically advanced?

It depends on what part of Babylon's history you're considering. To answer your question the short way, though: no, I don't believe they were particularly advanced for their time, but they certainly made their mark in the advancement of ancient civilizations.

From a few quick glances at relevant Wikipedia articles: Hammurabi gave rise to "Babylonia," and we all know he commissioned one of the first codes of law that the ancient world had seen, and is likely why they receive a bonus upon research Writing; the Code of Hammurabi was written in stone, and remains as one of the longest deciphered writings of the ancient world. The anachronistic representative of Babylon in-game is Nebuchadnezzar II, who is perhaps most known for the great feats of architecture commissioned during his reign: the alleged Hanging Gardens of Babylon (though its actual existence is still somewhat in dispute) and the Ishtar Gate of Babylon. Also, Nebby's ancient Akkadian namesake is Nabu, the Babylonian god of wisdom, and inscriptions discovered that are thought to be by Nebuchadnezzar have him styling himself as Nabu's "beloved." And that's just a quick summary of it all; I'm sure there's a lot more to it.

I think the problem Firaxis encountered is that they included many civilizations that are commonly considered to be the "cradles of civilization", including Babylon but also Egypt, India, Assyria (also in the Mesopotamian area), China, Greece, etc. They all obviously needed to be distinct from one another, so they slated Egypt as the monument builders, Assyria as a warmongerer (since they were quite the conquerers), Greece as a hub of City-States (which it was historically), and so on. Though not particularly being a hub of scientific research and technological advancement during its time, they turned Babylon's accomplishments up to 11 and used it to justify being advanced scientifically. Sometimes rigorous historical accuracy has to be forsaken in the pursuit of uniqueness and game balance.

 

[dagriggstar]

Also working on a rebalancing mod......Seems to be a few of us......

Obviously there are many defining aspects to each civilization, but this is a game and if you're going for more "uniqueness" for each civ you kind of have to focus on one particular aspect.
For instance for Egypt I'm planning to keep the wonder building bonus but add a "Riverdock" building (Basically a way early hydroplant) instead of the Burial temple, since a Burial temple doesn't synergize with Egypts UA. But Egypt could just as easily be a warlike civ since the leader is Ramesses II. Or a desert/river focused civ. Or lots and lots of things I'm sure...

The thing about modding is that you can mod each civ to fit your personal view of what the civ should be like. FREEDOM

 

[noto2]

you're allowing the player to choose bonuses? As in Galactic civ?

 

[dunkleosteus]

I would change Egypt's UB to replace shrine, without the gold maintenance, still +2 faith but maybe only +1 happiness.

Should also give +1 culture from salt (for mummification) and +1 faith from the pyramids if you happen to get them. I don't think that's a huge incentive to get the pyramids and I don't think it makes it necessary to get them. But it makes sense, so I think it should be there.