Why are there so many less mods for Civ 5 than 4?

CaptainKoloth

Chieftain
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Mar 13, 2013
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Having been both a big Civ 4 and 5 fan and having gone back and forth several times on which is the best game, I can't help but notice how many fewer mods 5 has as compared to 4. Why is this? Other than a near-infinite number of leaders and civilization reskins, i don't see much of anything for 5 akin to the awesome, fully featured total conversion mods than give Civ 4 legs even today. RFC. FFH. ROM. Final Frontier. All those things. Where are mods like that for Civ 5? Is the Civ 5 code significantly harder to write mods for? Is it much harder to do art? What is the reason for this?
 
Are you playing with availability to the steam workshop? There are hundreds of mods there, many of which are civilizations.
 
Are you playing with availability to the steam workshop? There are hundreds of mods there, many of which are civilizations.


That's exactly my point. There's tons of civilization reskins. There's very little on the scale of what Civ 4 had. Total conversions to fantasy/sci-fi scenarios. Remakes of SMAC in the Civ 4 engine. WW2 mods with strategic bombing and weather and all kinds of cool gameplay tweaks. Virtually the entirety of what I see in the Steam workshop is civilization/leader head art redos.
 
That's exactly my point. There's tons of civilization reskins. There's very little on the scale of what Civ 4 had. Total conversions to fantasy/sci-fi scenarios. Remakes of SMAC in the Civ 4 engine. WW2 mods with strategic bombing and weather and all kinds of cool gameplay tweaks. Virtually the entirety of what I see in the Steam workshop is civilization/leader head art redos.

Off the top of my head, I can think of a couple conversion mods: Rob (R8FXT)'s Anno Domini mod and Framed Architect's Faerun mod. S3rgeus is working on a Wheel of Time mod, but they've only recently begun to start coding on it.
 
Games get more complex over time. Not claiming that CiV's modding tools are perfect, but the difficulty curve is real.

Remember what it took to mod SMAC? A text editor and simple image tool (that supported transparency). The game behind it was still a decent amount of tech for it's time.
 
I'm not trying to argue there are no Civ V mods or anything like that. But there are objectively fewer of them. It can't just be tech- Civ 2 had rules.txt and Civ 4 rules.xml but ultimately modding for both was text based. And clearly there many people out there capable of good 3D modeling. for these reasons I have been assuming there is something about the way Civ 5's code is written that makes it much more difficult to mod and asking what exactly it is.
 
And clearly there many people out there capable of good 3D modeling.

If there are, send 'em this way. I spend a lot of time each day in the Civ 5 Creation & Customization forum and there seems to be a great need for 2D artists, let alone 3D artists.
 
I'm not certain if this applies to other modders. But for the things that I want to do. I find Civ 5 has a lot less flexibility when modding. The lack of flexibility has caused me to do less modding.
 
I've noticed the lack of Civ 5 compared to 4 mods too. Really hated the stacks of doom in Civ 4, so I really don't want to play that again.

But sometimes, actually most of the time, Civ 4 seemed like a more complex deeper game than Civ 5.

Civ 5 seems like you are "Science is great, Science is good, Science is tourism, Science is money, Science is military might, etc.."
 
Moderator Action: Moved to Creation & Customization
 
  1. We do not have access to the Civ5 graphical engine code. Firaxis has never released it.
  2. Pursuant to the above, making unit models and terrain improvement models took forever for art-type mod-makers to figure out.
  3. I have no idea how long Rhys took to make Civ4's Rhys and Fall1, but big overhaul total conversion mods in Civ5 seem to take forever, and a couple of them have fallen into disuse after all that effort from various causes.
    • "Nights" (or is it "Knights" ?) never made it to G&K compatibility, as I recall, and certainly has never had a reboot for BNW.
    • Rob has spent pretty much all his non-forum-moderator hobby-time on one mod: Anno Domini, and only got the BNW version put together and 'ready' for prime-time in the last 6 months or so.
  4. Having said all that, I cannot really say if '5' modding is inherently harder than '4' modding: all I ever did in '4' was fiddle the game's base xml files to a little better fit to the way I thought the game should work, such as allowing more of each Missionary-type on the game-board per-player at the same time.


1He started one for Civ5, I think, but abandoned it as I recall pretty much because of #1 and #2.
 
  • "Nights" (or is it "Knights" ?) never made it to G&K compatibility, as I recall, and certainly has never had a reboot for BNW.


1He started one for Civ5, I think, but abandoned it as I recall pretty much because of #1 and #2.

NiGHTS ;) And it had G&K comp., just not BNW.
 
I think one of the big handicaps that Civ 5 modders face is the inability to modify much graphically. Most of the code issues can be resolved with DLL modding -- pretty much all of the total conversion fantasy mods have custom DLLs to help them circumvent some of the limitations that exist within the core game. However, they all run into the barrier that many of the graphical features of Civ simply cannot be modified -- you can't add new building styles, or terrain features, or new natural wonders. The best you can do is reskin existing terrain (I know Faerun does this to create the Underdark), but you still can't add new elements. You also can't add or even recolor visual effects like weapon attacks or animated features like Fallout.

There's also only a literal handful of graphical modders -- if you're talking about new fantasy unit models, you could probably count the number of people doing that for Civ 5 on one hand. Deliverator, Nomad or What, and Civitar are the major ones that come to mind, although a few people like Uruk and ispanets have contributed some models. I think I and Skajaquada may be the only ones that have converted any sci-fi models. There's at least a greater variety of historical models, but there's still only a handful of people actively working on them, and it's a major bottleneck even just for civ mods, much less a total conversion historical mod.

In my own efforts to convert various models to Civ 5, I have to look rather longingly at the variety of graphical elements that were available in Civ 4. Entire city styles, visual effects and animations... something like the Final Frontier mod would be impossible in Civ 5 without access to the graphics dll.

There are, of course, a variety of other factors as well. For all that I say DLL modding can at least circumvent many of the limitations built into the code, it's still a highly time-intensive process. I think that Civ 5 modding community is also rather smaller compared to the Civ 4 modding community -- there may be 3D modellers out there, but aside from the handful mentioned above, they aren't active here.

In the end, though, I enjoy the community we do have here. Compared to most gaming forums I've visited, it's nearly always been a rather positive place, where people think about how to make features they want to see in the game become a reality. Even if it's not a super-big community, that just means it has a cosy familiarity that can result in projects like The World According to Modders. It's one of my favorite places on the internet to hang out. :D
 
More like all the cool features in the DLL are hardcoded. World Congress DLL is for some reason hardcoded along with ideologies(a total conversion mod did this, but this was only to add an ideology). If I wanted a unit that could range fire before melee attacking like an impi, it would be hardcoded.
 
Because Civ 5 is the most moddable Civilization game ever. :p

Really, at this point, we can't still access even city-styles nor wonder art... I remeber that time back in 2012, when the only way to have custom leader music was to completely replace an existing leader. Fortunately, we have already got past that, and way past this point:
Code:
<SuperCityState>true</SuperCityState>
 
Nobody yet mentioned the fact that Civ4 has been there for longer than civ5?

I'd say that's a pretty good reason myself...
 
I'll point you to the Community Patch Project + JFD's collection of mods. Do we really need anything else at this point? :)

Many of the overhauls of Civ4 were/are absolutely unbalanced and dragged the game down to an absolute crawl. I'd rather have our limited selection of polished overhauls and gameplay additions than 10 different 'complete rethinks' of the game.

G
 
If I wanted a unit that could range fire before melee attacking like an impi, it would be hardcoded.
This specifically is not - the "ranged attack before melee" ability is part of the promotions, under "RangedSupportFire".
Fortunately, we have already got past that, and way past this point:
Code:
<SuperCityState>true</SuperCityState>
What was that for? :confused:
 
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