1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Why don't you like Orbis

Discussion in 'Orbis Modmod' started by Ahwaric, Feb 15, 2010.

?

Why don't you like Orbis?

Poll closed Apr 1, 2010.
  1. It is just too weird (changed FfH basics too much)

    13 vote(s)
    16.5%
  2. Not unique enough

    2 vote(s)
    2.5%
  3. Not enough features

    4 vote(s)
    5.1%
  4. Too many crashes

    14 vote(s)
    17.7%
  5. The economy is not balanced

    15 vote(s)
    19.0%
  6. AI is weak

    26 vote(s)
    32.9%
  7. The guilds are too powerful

    12 vote(s)
    15.2%
  8. OOS and other issues that break multiplayer

    13 vote(s)
    16.5%
  9. Ahwaric, take this pie and a break from modding...

    2 vote(s)
    2.5%
  10. Other (explained below)

    17 vote(s)
    21.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Fluesterwitz

    Fluesterwitz Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2009
    Messages:
    79
    But I do like Orbis! :goodjob:

    However, as I lack every kind of technical aptitude, I'll wait for 0.30 (or 1.0). It took me about three months till I had reasonably stable installations of FF, Orbis and Lena, then some %+*%=?'# SOB steals my laptop. (Who is stupid enough to steal a five year-old discounter computer? :confused:). In the meantime I'll wait for the single installs for Orbis and RifE. I'm also reading the forums (fora?), but as lots of the discussions are either technical or rather involved, even if I happen to have an opinion on a topic, it has often been stated allready.

    In short: Your work is appreciated. ;)
     
  2. Emptiness

    Emptiness []

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2009
    Messages:
    1,922
    It's been a while since I tried Orbis, so I'll abstain from the poll so that your numbers reflect the view of current players, but I'll throw in my feedback for what it's worth:

    I got interested in Orbis because I wanted to try the Scions and Mechanos civs. I started with the Scions, and thought they were interesting. I didn't much care for the tech tree changes, but since it was my first game it is to be expected that adjustment would take time. I disliked the reversion of the promotions schema to mirror Civ; the Civ schema is made for a counter-units unit design and doesn't really work (imo) with a unit design that does not consist of units that are designed to counter one another. Still, this was not a major problem, but rather just a matter of taste.

    The major problem that I encountered was with some of the Scion unique mechanics, such as Haunted Lands. As I mentioned, it has been a while since I tried Orbis, so I don't recall the details precisely. My own living units (not that I had many, as the Scions) were becoming addicted by traveling through Haunted Lands, and the mechanism for spreading Haunted Lands just didn't seem to work right (sorry I can't be more specific about in what way). The presence of Haunted Lands at the start of the game and the automatic spread of Haunted Lands both also seemed overpowered (from the perspective of the Scion player, that is). I looked for information about how manually spreading Haunted Lands was supposed to work, in the modmod and in these forums, and couldn't find the answers I was seeking. I did find, however, that the Scions were also in FF, so I decided to download that in the hope that it would explain how this was supposed to work.

    I was pleasantly surprised to find that all the things that didn't seem to be working right in Orbis (wrt Haunted Lands) were working in self-evident and sensical ways in FF. I don't know if this was actually true, but the impression that I got was that the Scions had been implemented (correctly) in FF and then some of their mechanics broken in the process of porting them to Orbis. Faced with the alternatives of using a system that seemed to be working, or using a system that seemed to be broken, I naturally went with the working one. I never went on to a second game of Orbis, and never tried the Mechanos (for all I knew they were just as messed up). (I eventually ended up abandoning FF as well, mostly because my computer had too much trouble processing turns in the mid- and late-game.)

    I think Orbis will always be a niche modmod, because of the decision to reincorporate Civ features like the promotions schema, but that doesn't mean it can't be a successful one. My suggestions for improving the impression players will have of Orbis are to get all the mechanics working as desired, and then document those mechanics (especially as they differ from FfH or FF) very well in the 'pedia. (And if this has already been done since I tried the modmod, then very good and carry on.)
     
  3. arstal

    arstal Say No 2 Net Validations

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    771
    My desires:

    First off: my favorite mod is probably Rystic's Tweakmod. Some nice changes, could stand to add a bit more content.

    I really think a good AI would be able to compete at Noble. Tweakmod and Wildmana do this, Orbis just doesn't.

    Orbis has too much micromanagement, somewhat due to the poor AI also.

    My ideal mod would be this Tweakmod + Wildmana's automation, ranged combat, and AI enhancements.

    I do not like the changes Wildmana makes to gameplay, particularly with barbs, which often turns the game into player vs barbs, as barbs usually maim the AI too hard.

    Also, I'm waiting for 0.30 before passing final judgement.
     
  4. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    14,450
    Location:
    Crestview FL
    Thought I'd comment on this... Tweakmod does not do that, it is something inherited from FfH. Which got it from Wild Mana. Granted, he's done some work on it, but without the Wild Mana work it wouldn't be 'competitive' at Noble.

    On the other hand though... It's possible there's a reason neither Orbis or RifE have merged those changes; They're great to play with, not so great to merge or mod with.

    Also, competition by receiving more bonuses isn't competition. Sephi's AI is smarter, but it still got more bonuses.
     
  5. attackdrone

    attackdrone Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    109
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Orbis has replaced base Fall From Heaven for my usual civ gaming experience. The main reason is that the focus has been on interesting and worthwhile additions rather than simply "more more more." Documentation is somewhat lacking (but I remember a year or more ago Fall From Heaven had a very similar documentation gap). Getting the game up and running, and working properly should definitely be the priority - it is a waste of effort to spend hours putting in Civilopedia references to material that gets changed, removed, or adapted in the subsequent release.

    I do play Orbis multiplayer every week, but this is always a hotseat game so fortunately crashes are not problematic. (In fact, my hotseat buddy has disallowed me from updating to the FFH patch 'm' in case it breaks my Orbis download, ha).

    One thing I would like to note is that for the first time in Civ gaming, I have begun to copy AI behavior. I am referring to the habit of the AI sending archers to camp animal lairs, ranged attacking them over a long period of time and gaining massive experience. After noticing the AI had ridiculously elite archers, I wanted them as well and tracked down the behavior to emulate. It is moments like this, where the AI behaves like an opportunistic human player, that make me enjoy Orbis and hope for continued AI improvement.
     
  6. arstal

    arstal Say No 2 Net Validations

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    771
    I always suspected that. Explain further?

    I do agree with you BTW, but I didn't think any of the mods touched the bonuses.

    I'm picky on my AI ever since I played GC2. Then again Stardock designs their games around the AI, which is good usually, bad in some things.
     
  7. arcticnightwolf

    arcticnightwolf Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Messages:
    1,301
    Location:
    Prague, Czech Republic
    so many mods (Orbis, LENA, RifE), so little time
     
  8. Jabie

    Jabie Wanted in Monte Carlo...

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2003
    Messages:
    1,024
    Location:
    Southampton, UK
    3 Food and alternative tech-tree (though Printing Press was a nice addition) would be my main gripes. Being able to turn off Ranged Combat in the options would be a nice addition too. If that all sounds too negative and there is plenty of positives to be taken from Orbis, not least the Mechanos.
     
  9. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    14,450
    Location:
    Crestview FL
    Yes, the Mechanos are awesome... And I'm reverting most of my own tweaks to them to match Ahwaric's original version. Though I'm keeping my ranged 'affinity' rather than a standard refined mana affinity.... :p
     
  10. wapamingo

    wapamingo Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    Messages:
    399
    I play only multiplayer games (LAN/direct IP), and WildMana is the only stable modmod, and has a really kick-ass AI.

    RiFE was great actually for multiplayer with no OOS issues but the AI is simply not there, unfortunately (I and my human opponent had 3 cities each whereas AI had 1 at that time: was it because we started on prince with increasing difficulty setting so the AI never really got to higher difficulty?). Also, some civs in RiFE are simply too much in multiplayer (spider people are so OP).

    Unfortunately, Orbis takes too long for turns but have not too many OOS though. However, that said the things introduced in Orbis gets us trying it again and again to "survive" the wait time - so if you can get the MP side going smooth Orbis would be great. I like Orbis, keep up the good work. Not sure how to address the turn wait time, though. I know I mentioned it before on this forum - so that is the only thing keeping me away. Good work though!
     
  11. Breez

    Breez Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2008
    Messages:
    924
    I did not vote in this poll or the one that caused it.

    I like Orbis. I play Wildmana also.

    I like the AI and the actual 'Wild' part of the mana in wild mana.

    In Orbis I like the extra resources, especially Dark wood. And of course there is LENA

    The only downsides for me are:
    - AI is better on Wildmana. I know that is a large undertaking to change but that is a large part of why I tend to play Wildmana more often.
    - Lack of the Modular additions. I really like being able to tweak my gameplay when people release various Modular mods that I like, and I of course can chose to not use the ones I don't like.

    If Orbis had the improved AI and was Modular It would be my favorite currently.
     
  12. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    14,450
    Location:
    Crestview FL
    All BtS mods are Modular; You clearly mean True Modular, as developed by the WoC team, though. I think that would be a good thing to merge into Orbis (Though it can be a pain sometimes), as it would make it easier for those interested to tweak it, and create more content for others to download and play with. A more active community, basically.
     
  13. Schwarzbart

    Schwarzbart Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2009
    Messages:
    509
    I last played a Orbis based Game around the time Opera took a break. Curently I waiting for a new Release from Nova Alba or RiFE while playing ROM AND Beta 10. So I am more for the Big Mods.
     
  14. Player9

    Player9 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2010
    Messages:
    5
    To be honest Obris ist the only FFH-mod I play, because it has the great advantage of being balanced. On the other hand there are less features, but all in all it is the best FFH-mod.
     
  15. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2008
    Messages:
    3,584
    It's all personal taste of course, but the gripes about the 3 food system seem silly to me. The only direct effect is that it gives Ahwaric some extra flexibility in modifying growth without resorting to decimal places. It's really a wash if it's 50% more food required but 50% more food produced. I'm not saying that this is the case (it isn't), but my point is that there is nothing intrinsically different about 3 vs. 2 until you get into all the other details. In other words, if you adjusted everything else proportionately then you would have the same exact gameplay (which would be pointless, of course). The gameplay differences in Orbis are in how everything else is adjusted relative to the extra 50% food requirement. First, Orbis makes fishing boats and camps available from first tier techs (I wish pastures were too), rather than being buried 3 techs down the tech tree (e.g., camps in base FFH are essentially out of reach for starting civ). Second, un-farmed (& non-floodplain) tiles are generally not sustaining (2 f from grassland < 3 needed for 1 pop). Third, food production (through improvements and +% buildings) have generally been boosted. So? For every miner or villager you need a farmer. Seems fine from a flavor perspective. From a gameplay perspective:

    Pros (in my opinion of course):
    1) In Orbis, there are fewer fatal starting areas (although city placement is much more resource/river dependent). In Orbis, a tundra area with game is quite survivable, as is an all-plains area with a river. Both of these would be fatal starting positions in base FFH (other modmods have a camps fix for Doviallo only, but it seems kind of ad hoc to me). In base FFH, you pretty much need some grassland (or floodplains) or forget it. In Orbis, you need a river and/or some food resources. This is mapscript specific, of course, but it is generally possible to find some food resource or river close to your start. Not always possible to get to grasslands.
    2) If you want a very very big city in Orbis, you have to work for it. In base FFH (and other modmods), city size is almost entirely limited by the happy cap. In Orbis, it is a more complex consideration of food + happy citizens. This may sound exactly opposite to my point in #1 above. My point above is that Orbis is more forgiving in terms of getting a city started. But Orbis is more challenging for building really big cities. In FFH, assuming it is not a really bad area (which should be avoided anyway) then all of your cities soon have the same exact population (+1 for the capital) dependent entirely on civ-wide happiness factors (resources, civics, religion & tech-enabled buildings). In Orbis, if you want to push the happy cap, you have to have a very food rich fat cross or build a lot of farms. The effect is that there is much more differentiation between megopolises and small outposts (some cities are settled entirely for strategic reasons with no hope of ever being large). Some will see this as a con, but I view the increase in city diversity/specialization as a pro.

    Cons:
    1) At least in the current implementation, farms almost always trump cottages. I think Ahwaric is trying to re-balance this without swinging the balance the other way. Anyway, it is fixable without scrapping the system.
    2) Rivers have become too damn essential. I don't mind that rivers are good, but they have become too good compared to non-river tiles. This is problem is compounded by all the river-dependent building that Orbis adds.

    Overall, I like it.
     
  16. Freesmog

    Freesmog Skeptic1938222569

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Messages:
    176
    Location:
    outside the city
    I didn't know about any previous poll, but prefer Orbis over Fall Further & Wild Mana, though am interested in trying them again to see if they have improved. I tried FF last year & it became crash intensive mid to late game, and couldn't handle restarting every move. Then I tried Wild Mana, and realized my workers wouldn't build certain improvements without crashing the game, so I knew it needed more work. Then I found Orbis, and am happy with it so far. I don't know why people are seriously concerned about techs, improvements, etc. when there are far more important considerations that come first IMO, like if the game crashes :(
     
  17. arkham4269

    arkham4269 Court Writer - Orbis Mod

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,337
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Someone above mentioned this and I thought I'd bring it up as well. Not sure why, but when I end a game, it seems to take forever for my system to recover from ending the game. Sure I play through Steam, but earlier today I ended a Planetfall mod game and it almost instantly quit to the Steam screen which almost immediately let me end Steam.

    Normally most Orbis games (especially late game) takes my system like 5 minutes before I can do anything. That and if I start a late game save, sometimes the first few turns run at the speed of an enraged snail and I always feel like it is going to crash. Just seems that the game is always more slow after a save and a restart of the system which is weird since I would think starting up a save after your system being off would make it run smoother.
     
  18. PapaMonkey

    PapaMonkey Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2006
    Messages:
    135
    Location:
    Doylestown, PA
    Actually, I like Orbis better than the other Mods. I read this and thought to myself that I must be missing something so I downloaded RIFE and tried it. I like Orbis better. There are somethings I'd change, but I think it works well and provides a nice game play. I do wish the AI would better take advantage of some of your changes, but I understand that must be a very difficult challenge.
     
  19. axongold

    axongold Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    31
    I started playing Orbis about the time that FF introduced Force mana. I've played FFH on and off for a long time now (pre BTS). After a while it started to get a bit stale and I wanted to try modmods. At the time I tried FF frist, because it had large amounts of features. In fact I did NOT try orbis because there was a post comparing FFH and FF and Orbis in which (either I misread of the post was wrong) it said Orbis took out the magic system all together.

    After about 5 games of FF I started to notice some pretty big bugs. They were things that were easy to fix myself at first, but the fact I was fixing them seemed odd! But what finally made me quit was how slow FF ran. It was horrible enough on my computer that a standard size map on normal speed would be super slow by turn 100 or so.

    So I tried Orbis. I haven't played anything since. I love Orbis. Lately I have considered trying FFH base again, but only because I've played Orbis so much that even on Diety the AI can't win a war against me and I wanted a challenge. I have yet to try FFH base, because I keep hoping that .30 will fix the AI enough to be a serious threat again.

    So, I love all the changes Orbis makes, ironically I especially love the Guild System just the way it is. Because lets face it, if you control enough resources through trade or land to be able to abuse the guilds, you were going to win anyway. The Guilds give me reasons to finish games where I otherwise would just quit knowing I had won. Its fun to be able to see how many bonuses I can collect. The only thing I would imrpove is the AI.
     
  20. Del Valle

    Del Valle Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2009
    Messages:
    26
    I like Orbis allot, I think really its one of the best modmods out there. My only complaint is how easy it is to build a strong economy and steamroll the stuttering AI. FIx the economy and the AI, and you'll be golden.
     

Share This Page