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Why don't you like Orbis

Discussion in 'Orbis Modmod' started by Ahwaric, Feb 15, 2010.

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Why don't you like Orbis?

Poll closed Apr 1, 2010.
  1. It is just too weird (changed FfH basics too much)

    13 vote(s)
    16.5%
  2. Not unique enough

    2 vote(s)
    2.5%
  3. Not enough features

    4 vote(s)
    5.1%
  4. Too many crashes

    14 vote(s)
    17.7%
  5. The economy is not balanced

    15 vote(s)
    19.0%
  6. AI is weak

    26 vote(s)
    32.9%
  7. The guilds are too powerful

    12 vote(s)
    15.2%
  8. OOS and other issues that break multiplayer

    13 vote(s)
    16.5%
  9. Ahwaric, take this pie and a break from modding...

    2 vote(s)
    2.5%
  10. Other (explained below)

    17 vote(s)
    21.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Bezhukov

    Bezhukov Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Orbis is RoM for FFH. Playing with Ozzy's map is the best civ experience I've had to date. That said, like with RoM, the three food per pop really fries the AI, so attention there would probably be the most effective route.

    Or just chilling until Civ5 hits.
     
  2. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

    Joined:
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    Orbis never lost one bit of its awesomeness. but with wild mana and rife around, the competition is strong :lol:

    right now imho wild mana is THE mod, due to being best in single player ( good AI ) and in multiplayer as well ( OOS are very uncommon ) , and Orbis comes second due to rife not being balanced ( overpowered animals and whatsnot ) . when the new version of all three comes out it will be a nice Orbis VS RifE match in multiplayer assuming both are balanced and free of crashes/bugs/OOS. wild mana will still be superior in singleplayer though imho.
     
  3. arstal

    arstal Say No 2 Net Validations

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    771
    HOnestly, with Wildmana I get the impression the AI is more "cheap" then "good"
     
  4. Sephi

    Sephi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2009
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    2,908
    any good AI in CIV4 is cheap. If you play BTS on Deity the AI won't pull of some magnificent strategies, it just can research much faster, can train units faster and has a lot more handicap bonuses.

    Orbis is one of few FFH modmods that doesn't have the Wildmana AI included as a lite version so you might want to give it a try if you haven't already.

    I hope I find the time to play a games with the new Orbis version. Sounds pretty good on paper.
     
  5. arstal

    arstal Say No 2 Net Validations

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    771
    I accept it's a game flaw, but often with Wildmana I felt like I was fighting barbs not players.

    Hopefully Civ V doesn't have dreadful AI like Civ 4 does. Either that or I've been spoiled by Stardock.
     
  6. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
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    Crestview FL
    Actually... To be perfectly honest, NO major FfH modmod has Wildmana AI. Orbis, FF, RifE... None of them. Smaller mods, such as Tweakmod and Magistermod, do, but they are also far smaller in scope (not that that's a bad thing; Some people want lots of new stuff, others don't.).
     
  7. Sephi

    Sephi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2009
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    2,908
    well, only Wildmana has Wildmana AI :p (which is a combination of a few AI mods finetuned for Wildmana), but some other "major" modmods like Tweakmod, Flavormod, MagisterMod or Denevs Mod have a nice Lite version. :) Take a look at TC01 thread and look what is listed under major modmod :p not that his definition is right and yours is wrong but there are definetly different opinions on this.

    to stay on topic: Don't know if fishing villages for the AI is still an issue in Orbis. But if it is you could use the code for Pirate Coves from Skyre Noktis Mod (changes should be easy to find, CvUnitAI and code to modify workboatsneeded for a city) and tweak fishing villages to use also this code. I did that in Wildmana and works great.
     
  8. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Major mods are those with forums. :p

    On Pirate Coves - I'm not sure that would be necessary. Ahwaric imported code allowing you to specify a minimum range between like improvements in xml, along with code teaching the AI what it means; It's just a standard build order, no spell or python involved.
     
  9. Sephi

    Sephi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2009
    Messages:
    2,908
    not every mod needs a forum :p

    AI modifications are still necessary so that the AI a) builds the workboats and b) uses workboats on non bonus plots. But maybe Ahwaric already added this. Haven't played Orbis in a while.
     
  10. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

    Joined:
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    No, but those that do not are, without question, smaller in scope, ambition (well, with the exception of MagisterMod. :p), and stay closer to vanilla FfH; Typically, they don't edit the DLL much at all (or do so in just one area), which honestly means they have no choice in the matter of using whatever portions of your mod are ported to FfH. ;)

    Edit: Not to insult them at all; Some people don't want many new features, and simply want to rebalance the game. Or don't have the time to do what they really want to do. Some of the others are specialized for one thing (Display, Flavour, etc)... All of which are perfectly valid. I just disagree about their inclusion as a 'major' modmod; Honestly, were RifE not as popular as it is, and FF not on hiatus (which is part of why RifE is popular), I wouldn't even include it; It's technically a modmodmod.

    But that's enough derail, I think....

    RifE uses the same code (Works very well; You should add it. :p Forts putting out Culture would make a good game option for Wild Mana. ;)), and I've seen Lanun building as many of these as they can. :goodjob:
     
  11. Iskar Jarak

    Iskar Jarak Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
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    95
    Location:
    Nantucket
    My main dislike in Orbis is that every or most lines can use metal weapons with no modification of their base strength, this causes some serious imbalances in my opinion. My other bones are it makes several pointless changes, such as the re-inclusion of the pole arm classes, and the fact that it makes fewer changes than some other mods
     
  12. Sephi

    Sephi Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2009
    Messages:
    2,908
    they can always use the Patch g DLL...
    And Denevs mod definetly fulfills all criteria of a major mod. reworked spell engine+FFHBUG+much improved Civilopedia and other stuff, tons of DLL changes here and there. I am sure many also see BUG as a major mod for CIV4.

    Autoplayed 100 turns in Rife as lanun and AI didn't build a single pirate cove. Was that added recently? Don't plan to merge it but interested on how the code was written
     
  13. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
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    Location:
    Crestview FL
    Using the patch g DLL isn't really an option at this point.

    Denev's mod... It does, but it doesn't. My criteria are:
    • Introduces large new features, rather than just rebalancing
    • Has a large player base
    • [Optional]Has a subforum (all mods I'd classify as major currently do, main reason this is here)

    I haven't looked at Denev's mod, but most of it seemed to be either Bug, other interface improvements, or rule changes... There don't seem to be any real new features, just changes to existing features. Should probably look at it again.

    Last time I ran an autoplay as Lanun, they built several Pirate Coves and had fishing boats built (RifE allows them off of resources); That was in the test version, however, which few people have access to. 1.20 may be different, I honestly haven't loaded a game in it for a while now; Not enough time.

    @Ahwaric - I'm sorry for hijacking the thread there, I'll give it back now. :lol:
     
  14. Ahwaric

    Ahwaric Shrubbery-hugger

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
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    Location:
    Kraków, Poland
    Ok, time for me to say a few words in this discussion

    My main issue with Wildmana AI improvements (which are great btw) is hardcoding. While fine for FfH and most smaller mods (I second Valkrionn's opinion here), it is hard to use if mod changes gameplay. For example, Orbis features deeply changed tech tree, so the python hardcoded tech researching would have to be rewritten from scratch.
    This is not a matter of naming covention, just functionality. Denevs is is a big mod, but mostly with rewritten mechanics, not game features. Ok, you cast spells differently and there is BUG, but you still have the same civs, units, buildings & techs. Now check Rife or Orbis... Civilopedia changes are not relevant for the AI at all.
    Flavourmod chnges mostly one aspect of the game. It is great - and included both in Orbis and Rife. I am not famillar with tweakmod. Magistermod is relatively new - I think it started (Magister was constantly starting it anew) after introducing wildmana AI to FfH. Plus I think it probably already has some issues with AI if Magister does not adjust it when adding gameplay features.
    Valkrionn is right, it is no longer an issue. In Orbis at least, it is in since early patches of 0.24. Workboats are build fine and AI uses it to build fishing boats. With Orbis changes, I do not need spell anyomre. I am using your code from FfH, just rewritten to accomodate different mechanics of FfH and Orbis. Also, I was able to make it shorter as I no longer need to check if the civ is Lanun, and had imported minmum improvement distance tag - so no more hardcoding or semi-hardcoding.
    This is how it works with most wildmana AI changes - they are great in FfH, but has to be rewritten in major modmods. It takes time, and I am not very good coder ;)

    But I still like your changes, so please expect more of them in Orbis (of course, if you do not mind). I try to add what can be added, and in pieces small enough for me to know how they work and how to adjust them.

    :crazyeye: Ok, your opinion has been noted. I may need to tweak down recon line strength, but I disagree with the rest.

    Thanks for your opinions people, I read all of them. And they do influence my decisions, so if you have anything to add, please do it. :)

    Edit: Valkrionn, i think this discussion is perfectly valid here - Ai is an issue, and this discussion explains why only some changes are not in Orbis/FF/Rife. The nature of the changes makes them modding unfriendly.
     
  15. Sephi

    Sephi Chieftain

    Joined:
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    You always need to adjust an AI to a mod, or else we could all use the BTS AI as is. Some parts of an AI are always hardcoded, the UNITAIs, the City production priorities, all the magic numbers in the DLL. I think your approach to tweak the Orbis AI rather than blindly merging stuff is the only way here.

    Opera mentioned the workboat issue a long time ago, nice to see it fixed :)

    The Python hardcoding from wildmana will work in FF, I actually merged it from my FF modmod. Rife has its own python AI hardcoding. Yes, it makes modding a bit less friendly, although it also opens new opportunities. It's far easier in wildmana to add a building and get the AI to use it (like warrens) than in FF for example.

    Python hardcoding is only a small part of the Wildmana AI, most is Unit behavior (like Arcane UNITAI's) and is as much hardcoded as the BTS AI.

    I wouldn't be surprised if some of the AI issues are gone with the next Orbis version. Balance always helps the AI :)
     
  16. jeffreyac

    jeffreyac Mostly Harmless

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    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    Just starting out with Orbis - so nothing really earthshaking... One question, though - is it possible to overlay a BUG type mod? I find I really miss some of the BUG features when I switch to a mod that doesn't use them...

    (oh, and if it's in there and I somehow missed how to turn them on, my sincere apologies!)
     
  17. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Joined:
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    Location:
    France
    My point is not that Orbis is bad because too different and having to learn it all back. My point is that I didn't like my Orbis game because I was in the black, thinking I understood things, and would only discover something is different when I'd stumble on it and generaly I discovered it the hard way. My game is then crap and I have to reload or keep a game with a bad start/mid/etc..
    Spoiler lots of grumbling :
    I'm not really bothered by the changes. it it just that having to find them all is bothersome. And I hadn't have this issue with FFH : I spent hours studying the civilopedia learning things and then I played and read xienwolfs' manual when I came back from a long year and found things had changed.

    from BTS to FFh: everything was new save : :health: :commerce: :hammers: and having cities and units so everything was a discovery, I never had the nagging feeling of "I know it should work like that...oops, doesn't".

    You seem to think you changed as much from FFH than FFH did from BTS. I think not.
    Maybe you are using 50% of FFH, remodeling 50% of it + adding some of your own.
    In the end, it is difficult for me to find what are those 50%...

    You were asking why I don't play Orbis. I told you. "Too difficult to learn the ropes and see what is different"... Then you answer like it's my fault "It was the same when learning FFH". Well If I thought that I wouldn't have told this kind of answer.

    When going from FFH, RiFE or WM toward Orbis, it really seems the same game, same civ, same lore, mostly same units, mostly same promotions, same spells... and in fact it works very differently and is played differently. And there are mostly no guidlines. It is much more difficult to adapt.
    RiFE, WM, even Magister'sModmod are less different from FFH than Orbis, true. But on the otherhand, I always could find the main differences between FFH and those mods somewhere on their forum. (I'm not speaking of the changelogs) I don't know why it seems so but I could find the answer somewhere.

    Maybe it should only be in the forums or something :
    a threads with the main changes would really really be helpful (the one already in place is more an appetiser than somthing you can learn from).
    e.g. : each civilization change (not the :strength: but the strategy, reasonning, main special units and/or main mechanisms),
    global changes (guilds : what the do, how)
    archery ?
    religions ?
    spying ? (not everybody played BTS. I only played vanilla then FFH)
    is commerce different?
    new civics ? are they linked with other things : religion/guild/improvement...Etc
    and furthermore I really disliked the tech tree :
    it was large and not long.
    things I instinctly thought as "close" (only 2 techs away) were in fact very far and expensive, and needed tech coming from other branches...
    Thats was a change from BTS to FFH, FFH's tech tree being more compact, more wide and leaving more options for pursuing one branch or one other. It was surprising but good in the end but I think you went too far (well maybe experienced Orbis players will tell me I'm really wrong).

    Sorry, It seems I'm grumbling a lot while I only played 1 game, and not very far. I just wanted to tell you what rebuked me with the hope that it may help you.
    After reading some of the threads I really want to play it, seeing the unconditional love of some of your supporters, but I'm not reading the information that would help me know what I will be playing exactly. (sorry if I'm unclear)


    EDIT : do not totally take this post into account. I decided to read most of the orbis forum when I can access it but cannot play civ, and play Orbis only after reading enough. I hope I'll find the information I need to enjoy Orbis. The only issue is that I'll probably only play Orbis way after the next version is out.
     
  18. Kalina

    Kalina Just lurking...

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    Calavente, I feel exactly opposite way :D When I play Wildmana, Rife or base FfH I'm often surprised that many things are different - not minor things, but larger ones like tech tree. But I agree that Orbis can use better pedia and first post in Welcome to Orbis thread.
     
  19. arstal

    arstal Say No 2 Net Validations

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    Tweakmod to me is in some ways is a rebalance of FFH, but with interesting mechanics added to races and Esus. Also tries to fix or replace the mechanics that are broke in FFH.
     
  20. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    hahaha :D you know, I think there are big differences. But the outer shape is the same. So what you think is different may not be and whant you think is the same may be entirely reworked.
    So IMO we agree, and it is just that you are able to see the differences and I cannot yet, only seeing what looks similar and seeing the differences too late.
     

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