Why have incels gotten so much attention?

[Narz]

But yes, I must agree with the idea that portrayal of sex in media as a whole is both narrow and inflexible, as well as there being a degree of violence. Or at least treating women as disposable for the sake of the male pleasure endgame though I would like to think things are changing

To play devils advocate that's what all entertainment is. We generally dont care about the actors beyond their film roles.

All Hollywood fantasy can be problematic, just our sex brain regions are even more prone to addiction.

 

[Lexicus]

Oh man, the humiliation is real. ....from what I've heard....

I prefer to think of it as "discernment"

 

[Narz]

138 pages!

The saddest part is when you swear ever ten pages "this ones the last!"

 

[Narz]

I prefer to think of it as "discernment"

I cant finish to anything on this page, what am I a barbarian?!

 

[Archon_Wing]

To play devils advocate that's what all entertainment is. We generally dont care about the actors beyond their film roles.

All Hollywood fantasy can be problematic, just our sex brain regions are even more prone to addiction.

To be fair, it can be hard to care about anyone beyond our own personal lives, so I'm definitely not going to judge anyone. (except in that 138 pages, maybe)

 

[Narz]

To be fair, it can be hard to care about anyone beyond our own personal lives, so I'm definitely not going to judge anyone. (except in that 138 pages, maybe)

IMO, the storylines for male focused porn will always be minimal because the more we see/hear the dude the harder it is to imagine ourselves as the one banging the girl.

 

[Kaitzilla]

He mocked things I felt were important, and he was always trying to push his interests on me, even things like some comic book he read about a woman being raped by demons so horrifically her mind was shattered (why would he even think a woman would be interested in this?)

Berserk is an amazingly popular Manga.
The artwork is gorgeous, there are 2 updates a year, it's been going for 30 years now I think, and the author will die before the story is completed.
It popularized the guy with the impossibly giant sword too!

The mind-shattered woman was the only strong female lead character, and her fate drives most of the revenge plot.
The other 2 main characters were repeatedly raped as a boy and had all their tendons severed through torture respectively.
Plus, the world is fundamentally evil, so it's not everyones' cup of tea.

(he's a big Mad Max fan, but he told me how this newest one is absolute garbage and an insult, but for me I did like it)

Fury Road was awesome!!!
Shiny and Chrome, mediocre, the metal playing guy, Charlize Theron playing Furiosa, giving pet names to the tumors that are killing you, that movie had it all.

 

[Archon_Wing]

IMO, the storylines for male focused porn will always be minimal because the more we see/hear the dude the harder it is to imagine ourselves as the one banging the girl.

Well, the audience is always an issue, I guess.

Obviously people want to know the story of how delivery boy got there though. Must have been a difficult trip (also filled with sex, probably)

 

[Hygro]

There plenty of people who aren't able to have sex in the world but they define themselves by 1) profession, 2) civic/political affliation, 3) hobbyist leanings or 4) faith community

Incels kind of just have none of those things. They're un(der)employed, don't participate in politics just have opinions and debates. Their hobbies are underdeveloped. They don't really believe in anything that which keeps them still.

They only arrived at their conclusions because it's the least work explanation. Not in an Occam's razor way but in a "popular discourse that came my way already" hodgepodge.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Not necessarily. MGTOW, Red Pill, and MRA may do a lot of the same whining as incels, but they don't openly advocate for the legalization of rape or government subsidized prostitution. Nor do any of those other groups refer to women in such terms that cannot even come close to being repeatable on this forum that the incels use to describe women.

In short, the other groups get left alone because they just complain about women, whereas incels actively and enthusiastically threaten women with physical and sexual violence.

I'm not sure when the Red Pill movement took over the Matrix reference, but Red Pill now means philosophy and Blue Pill means Viagra
Red Pill is also a Mens' Rights movie now too? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_Pill

Anyway, Red Pill philosophy appears to boil down to:

• “Dread game” or making your girlfriend fear that you’re about to break up with her in order to make her do what you want her to do
• Women are hypergamous and that they instinctually seek out the best Alpha male available, even if that means leaving the man that they are currently dating (or are married to)
• Alphas make up 20% of the male population and have sex with 80% of women
• If a woman is hesitant about having sex then you need to push past her “last minute resistance”
• “All Women Are Like That” and that she’ll constantly throw “*#^@ tests” at you to determine how much of an Alpha you really are
• Maintaining Frame (your worldview); women are so attracted to confidence that men MUST maintain their worldview at all times even if it conflicts with hers (sometimes being a jerk)

So women find sexually attractive an irrationally confident, aggressive, manipulative, clever, assertive man.
Not entirely wrong, those tend to be adult traits.

I wonder if the Incels are taking the violent/dehumanizing lessons from this kind of thing rather than the self-improvement ones?

 

[Hygro]

The Red Pill "I'm not getting laid so here's how I can change to get laid"
Incel "I'm not getting laid so here's how I can stay the same to not get laid"
They have a fair number of shared myths, though.

 

[Commodore]

The Red Pill "I'm not getting laid so here's how I can change to get laid"
Incel "I'm not getting laid so here's how I can stay the same to not get laid"
They have a fair number of shared myths, though.

Pretty much. From what I've seen of the incel community, they truly believe that they are fine just the way they are and that it is solely for reasons outside of their control ("inferior genetics" and the "80/20 rule" are the commonly cited ones) that they cannot attract a woman. So not only do they refuse to take responsibility for their own failings as humans, but they also believe women and "Chads" are to blame for their plight. That creates a mindset in which self-improvement becomes impossible and fosters an irrational hatred for those they see as responsible for their inability to attract a woman.

And the really sad thing is no matter what, there seems to be no way to snap them out of their mindset. People try to reason with incels constantly, but they simply don't listen. They just shout people down with accusations of either not being able to understand them or that the person reasoning with them is just a "Chad" or "Stacy" that is trying to somehow trick or deceive them into...something.

 

[Hygro]

They just shout people down with accusations of either not being able to understand them or that the person reasoning with them is just a "Chad" or "Stacy" that is trying to somehow trick or deceive them into...something.

How dare you bamboozle me into living a better life!

 

[yung.carl.jung]

The point I am making is that pornography does not exist in some kind of vacuum, but within temporal social contexts. Your concerns are only symptoms of a much larger problem in our society, and that problem is going to persist for a long time because we, as Americans, like to pretend like everything is fine. It's also quite paradoxical that despite the objectification and sexualization of human bodies in the media, our society is rather puritanical (which you can even see from moderator warnings in this friend, citing the old Republican adage of "family values"). We see gore, blood, and violence openly in film, but showing some nudity is considered taboo. And ironically, because sex and sexuality are taboo to discuss, people can only learn about them from something like pornographic materials. It's almost as if American porn is the product of sexual frustration and repression, which, I guess, is what forces incels and other sexually frustrated men to do terrible things?

Thanks for attending my TED talk.

no offense bro, but you seem utterly ignorant of the difference between eroticism and pornography. (maybe this is something we should discuss in-depth, as I feel it is very much relevant to the discussion at hand). not every naked body is sexualized, not every sexualized body is pornographic, not every depiction is explicit. just think about how many nude paintings there are that are neither pornographic nor erotic.

the problem I personally have with porn has little to do with patriarchy or anything to be honest. while I do think it is degrading, what I (and Lexi) were mostly talking about is its addiction potential and the way it alters your brain chemistry. not social issues. and yes, I do think both TV and especially Vidya will also enforce unrealistic expectations upon young males and females, but that's not what we're discussing. with your last paragraph however I mostly agree.

Incels kind of just have none of those things. They're un(der)employed, don't participate in politics just have opinions and debates. Their hobbies are underdeveloped. They don't really believe in anything that which keeps them still.

They only arrived at their conclusions because it's the least work explanation. Not in an Occam's razor way but in a "popular discourse that came my way already" hodgepodge.

not true at all! Incels are good, patriotic, freedom loving, classic liberals, like our boy Gordon Peter-san

 

[MaryKB]

I do not believe for a moment Beauty and the Beast is Stockholm Syndrome, I mean I did laugh when I first read that in a meme somewhere, but it's one of those things that's only funny for a moment as sort of a joke observation, but is in no way true. Yes, he did have power over her and he tried to abuse his power, but he never threatened her with death or physical injury, and she never submitted out of self-preservation instinct (you have to have those latter two for there to be Stockholm Syndrome). She fell in love with the Beast because he was compassionate, kind, and self sacrificing. He was very rough and he had temper issues, but as he worked on those his better nature started coming out, and that's what she fell in love with (which goes a lot with what I've been trying to say). She started warming up to him after he risked his own life to save hers (and he would've died if she hadn't saved him), he found out (through his servants, but still) what's important to her and made her a meaningful gift, really the most thoughtful gift she'd ever had in her life, which benefited her and wasn't really for him (but she did end up sharing and teaching him to read). He made real efforts to overcome his faults, and then especially when he let her go, giving up all his control and his hope, so she could save her father - well that's a real sign of love, and why Belle fell in love with him, not because she's psychologically broken from trauma (she was strong all the way through).

And I don't wish death on anyone, but I'd hardly say Gaston didn't get what he deserved. I mean, his death was caused by himself, because of his last attempt to kill the Beast out of his possessive jealousy, and he lost balance and fell. No one pushed him or really tried to kill him, he could've just left and gone on with his life. But he definitely doesn't deserve to get what he wants, which is to subject Belle to a lifetime of servitude and rape. And Gaston is totally one of the worst Disney villains, because he's real: he's the villain you're most likely to really meet in life, and that's absolutely terrifying. And you notice how their whole village sides with Gaston? They don't care what he's going to do to Belle against her will, because that's just natural order, he deserves companionship and comfort from her in their eyes, and they don't see anything at all wrong with what he wants to do. And that's totally real and a wonderful example of what I've been trying to explain for pages and pages, and is true despite how many men here claim it isn't.

And I believe Gaston is a perfect example of what incels likely hold up as some sort of pinnacle of maleness. He's handsome, charismatic, assertive, confident, and skilled. And men think he's what every woman wants, but he isn't. He has no respect for women as people, he views sex as something he's entitled to, and he doesn't at all understand concepts like consent and free will for women. I have a friend who just yesterday showed me something an incel posted, about how his girlfriend years ago had sex with another man, and he's thinking of beating her for this because she dares to feel her body belongs to her and she didn't "save herself for a nice man like him." My feeling is social attitudes are changing, we're not quite nearly as bad as Belle's village (but I again say anyone who thinks we're all the way is either willfully or ignorantly blind), and men can't just get away with that any more, and my feeling is that's what's making incels really frustrated. Look at what Gaston did when he didn't get what he wanted, and look at how incels are carrying out violence against women, you know?

Anyway, Red Pill philosophy appears to boil down to:

• “Dread game” or making your girlfriend fear that you’re about to break up with her in order to make her do what you want her to do
• Women are hypergamous and that they instinctually seek out the best Alpha male available, even if that means leaving the man that they are currently dating (or are married to)
• Alphas make up 20% of the male population and have sex with 80% of women
• If a woman is hesitant about having sex then you need to push past her “last minute resistance”
• “All Women Are Like That” and that she’ll constantly throw “*#^@ tests” at you to determine how much of an Alpha you really are
• Maintaining Frame (your worldview); women are so attracted to confidence that men MUST maintain their worldview at all times even if it conflicts with hers (sometimes being a jerk)

So women find sexually attractive an irrationally confident, aggressive, manipulative, clever, assertive man.

Do you think they really feel this way? I find this attitude absolutely disgusting, I feel really sad for them if they really believe this, I struggle to empathize with them because of how this sort of thing makes me feel personally threatened.

 

[Ryika]

I have a friend who just yesterday showed me something an incel posted, about how his girlfriend years ago had sex with another man, and he's thinking of beating her for this because she dares to feel her body belongs to her and she didn't "save herself for a nice man like him."

An Incel who has a girlfriend?

And that's totally real and a wonderful example of what I've been trying to explain for pages and pages, and is true despite how many men here claim it isn't.

I don't think anybody has claimed that these things don't exist, people (and not just men) have said that this is not normality for most people. Go out on the street, ask a thousand people what they think about it, and unless you intentionally ask only members of groups such as MGTOW, very conservative Muslims or very conservative Christians, the reactions you get will be a broad condemnation of these things.

By focusing on only the extremes, you're creating a world in your head that doesn't exist.

 

[Farm Boy]

You gotta hang with me or I'll kill your dad for seeking shelter from a storm on my property is so deliciously upper crust violence.

 

[red_elk]

I find this attitude absolutely disgusting, I feel really sad for them if they really believe this, I struggle to empathize with them because of how this sort of thing makes me feel personally threatened.

Their mistake is that they generalize traits which are true for some women, to women in general. Like, being sexually attracted to handsome "alpha males" is certainly true for many women, but we can't say that it's a "female nature" and all women are like that. This would be wrong and offensive to people who don't share this traits.

This is kind of similar to statements like "men abuse women", which are also generalized and can be offensive to normal men.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Your comparison is based on a false equivalence, whether you feel an incel deserves a partner or not is not the point. Your argument was based in the same mentality with which an incel would argue they do have such a right. By drawing a parallel between sexual relations and material possessions then drawing a conclusion based on that you identified a pattern of thinking which is actually part of the problem.

I think drawing parallels between two different things that someone might want, but may not be able to have, and the attitudes of people towards them who find it much easier to obtain those things, is perfectly valid. You can't declare it an invalid comparison just because the "thing" in question relates to another sentient being in one case, and not in another. They're still wants/needs/desires that human beings have, and that some human beings find easier to satisfy than others.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

ITT having preference is discrimination

Poor, Poor Civ 5 (even if it's not sexual.... probably)

Funny enough I've read about this alleged "discrimination" against incels, such as X-cel where X is something arbitrary, like neckcel, where apparently because of their neck, it means they can't get laid and other stuff like wristcel, armcel, noobcel, Procel, Aggcel, PlainsCowCel, APMcel.....

PlainsCowCel is just triggering. Arid world where Mali and only Mali has grasslands in some kind of cosmic irony no doubt.